Need Help Identifying - Manton SxS Percussion Shotgun (PIC HEAVY)

[maple leaf]

I need your help to identify this old SxS percussion shotgun. The barrel has alot of surface rust on it, and thus far (without cleaning it) I have not found any proof marks. The only marking is the word 'MANTON'. The overall length of the shotgun is 43.5 inches, with a 28 inch double barrel. My ultimate dream is to make this old beast shoot again, however I am realistic that this old thing will just be a project of love to hone some gunsmithing skills. Any and all help is appreciated.

Looking through my firearm history books, the only references for 'MANTON' I have are:

Here are some pictures for further help for identification (including calibre - I think it is a 16 or 17 gauge) and also possible value or ideas on sourcing or making any possible missing parts:

Thanks for all the help in advance!

 

[mooncoon]

I think if you take the barrels off of the stock, you will find proof marks under the barrels at the breach. If the lock or the top rib only says Manton, I think there is a good chance that the gun is made in Belgium. You would need the barrels and breach gone over by a knowledgeable person to determine if the gun could be made shootable again. From what I can see so far, I would not categorically reject the possibility nor guarantee it either.

cheers mooncoon

 

[maple leaf]

Mooncoon,
Thanks for the comment. I did have the barrel off, and didn't see any makers marks (thus the post), but the underside of the barrel had orange rust on it too (which could mask marks). I am hoping to get all that off with oiling ans steel wool. Hopefully then I can confirm or deny any possible marks. So far, she has stayed pretty much intact. More info will be shared as I venture into it a bit more. Thanks again

 

[maple leaf]

I just wanted to update, I cleaned up the surface rust on the barrel and sure enough that allowed me to see the makers marks on the underside. Hopefully one of you will be able to decipher what it all means:

From what I have been able to research (I need to have someone confirm if I am right or wrong) I believe it may be from The Birmingham Proof Company. There is another mark on the bottom right that looks like the left half of a capital 'H'. Not sure what that means. Does anyone know how to figure out the date of manufacture (my sources are conflicting as to the possible use of the marks)? This is what I found out about The Birmingham Proof Company via my sources:

The Birmingham Proof Company
In 1813 the Proof House of the Birmingham Proof Company was established by an Act of Parliament and built in Banbury Street. It was set up to prove all privately made firearms (that is non-Ordnance firearms) and it still operates on the same site today. The proof marks used from 1813 until 1904 were the crossed sceptres and crown mark, incorporating the letters BPC (Birmingham Proof Company), together with the crossed sceptres over a V

What was the real source of the BPC mark?
Why were the crossed sceptres and crown used as the Birmingham proof mark? The most likely explanation for this is suggested in an issue of Aris’s Birmingham Gazette17, dated 11th October 1813. This reports on the ceremony for the laying of the foundation stone of the new proof house. The article also states that “the barrels of all guns manufactured in Birmingham must be full Tower proof, by which persons may use such firearms with the greatest safety”. It would seem therefore that the Guardians of the Birmingham Proof House chose to copy the crossed sceptres and crown mark as used by the Tower private proof mark (crossed sceptres & crown stamped twice) but to identify it as Birmingham-made by including the letters BPC & V. Perhaps the established reputation of the crossed sceptres and crown mark instilled a guarantee of quality and reliability that the Birmingham gunmakers were keen to exploit.

 

[tiriaq]

Yup, standard post-1813 Birmingham proof marks.

That is a real project gun. Lots of repairs needed. Great opportunity for skills development.

 

[maple leaf]

Any ideas on gauge and possible year of manufacture? Also anyone know what that half 'H' or 'T' mark means? Does the lack of other markings that were common on these firearms, such as “NOT FOR BALL,” (a proof house warning which began I believe in 1875) and “NITRO PROOF” for smokeless powder (which began in 1896) help to determine date of manufacture?

 

[tiriaq]

It is going to be pretty hard to date precisely. Thousands upon thousands of similar shotguns were produced by the Birmingham gun industry. It doesn't have the proof marks introduced in 1855, so it probably predates that.

 

[maple leaf]

It is going to be pretty hard to date precisely. Thousands upon thousands of similar shotguns were produced by the Birmingham gun industry. It doesn't have the proof marks introduced in 1855, so it probably predates that.

Thanks for the comments. Ultimately I know more now about the firearm than I did a few days ago, and that is something I'm need to be content about. Now to the harder work of restoring it for fun.

 

[drslav]

Funny but i have one just like it... but in better condition. 1870s english gun. i will look up the thread.

EDIT mine is murcott

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/594019-Antique-shotgun-big-pics!!