Need help with 45-70

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IMR4320

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So I finally got to this classic and have a couple of questions I cannot find the answer within the manual I have (Hornady 9th edition). I plan to load primarily 405gr. lead cast bullets for moderate rifles such as Marlin 1895 and Hornady manual does not even list loading data for this bullet. So If anyone could supply me with proven or listed data for IMR 4198 and Reloader 7. Then I don't see anywhere specified if these cast bullets need to be gas checked. Ideas ? Thanks for any info.
 
These are for modern rifles

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

400gr bullet, start 40gr work up.

IMR IMR 4198 .458" 2.540" 47.0 1,954 35,400 CUP 50.0 2,089 47,100 CUP

i used to reload 405gr cast powder coat at 38gr imr 4198 gave me around 1400fps with 1895gbl

lyman 48th gives following

45-70cast.png
 
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Timely topic. Can you push plain base 405gr above 1500fps without leading? I am looking at picking up some Missouri bullets from a CGN sponsor.

Don't meant to hijack this thread. Would 350gr plated Barry's be a safer bet for basic plinking (no leading)?

This is from Lee's Modern Reloading - 2nd edition...

45-70 loads.jpg

The third set of loads in this book is for "modern Bolt Action or Ruger Single Shot arms"; the first is for Trapdoors.
 

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NaviDave said:
Timely topic. Can you push plain base 405gr above 1500fps without leading? I am looking at picking up some Missouri bullets from a CGN sponsor.

Don't meant to hijack this thread. Would 350gr plated Barry's be a safer bet for basic plinking (no leading)?

This is from Lee's Modern Reloading - 2nd edition...

View attachment 171043

The third set of loads in this book is for "modern Bolt Action or Ruger Single Shot arms"; the first is for Trapdoors.
Click to expand...


I'm sure any plated bullet will work fine and lighter plated bullets should in fact yield faster velocities but my plan is to start with lead which I can cast myself and control the cost and component availability. I cannot cast plated bullets but a 405 gr lead bullet coming in at 1500 or so FPS certainly will kill deer dead. Thanks for the info.
 
Then I don't see anywhere specified if these cast bullets need to be gas checked. Ideas ? Thanks for any info.
Click to expand...
Wondering the same with a Micro-groove barrel
The Lyman book shows up to 1500 fps and all gas-checked
 
I've never had much luck pushing plain base bullets very hard. I save those for lower velocity plinking loads. With gas checked 405's I go to a little over 1700 fps in an 18.5 barrel.

Chris.
 
NaviDave said:
Timely topic. Can you push plain base 405gr above 1500fps without leading? I am looking at picking up some Missouri bullets from a CGN sponsor.

Don't meant to hijack this thread. Would 350gr plated Barry's be a safer bet for basic plinking (no leading)?

This is from Lee's Modern Reloading - 2nd edition...

View attachment 171043

The third set of loads in this book is for "modern Bolt Action or Ruger Single Shot arms"; the first is for Trapdoors.
Click to expand...

No really simple yes or no answer to this inquiry. Bullet alloy & harness is a big consideration when this question is asked as well as how tight is your bore to the bullets you want to use.

first lets cover the bullet hardness, most commercial hard cast slugs are in the neighborhood of 24-26 BH and can be used in a tight bore up to 1700 without gas checks or plating. If you are casting your own slugs with the most common alloy that being clip-on WW with no hardening metal added then the BN will be around 12-14, My own personal velocity limit for these is around 1450, that being said I prefer 1100-1300 just to be sure the lead stick-um is non existent. With soft pure lead I would never exceed 1100.

Now a word on the bore tightness thingy...Even a low pressure load in the 20,000 ft. lb. area will wash lead from a hard cast bullet if the bore is a somewhat loose fit...the softer the lead the worse the wash-out is and more lead is deposited in the barrel. This is the reason every cast shooting manual ever published has a paragraph extolling the virtues of slugging a bore and using a cast slug that is nominally 2 thou over bore size.

After all that I will add that Powder Coating has very much made it easier to use cast bullets of most any alloy in most any decent bore.
 
fingers284 said:
No really simple yes or no answer to this inquiry. Bullet alloy & harness is a big consideration when this question is asked as well as how tight is your bore to the bullets you want to use.

first lets cover the bullet hardness, most commercial hard cast slugs are in the neighborhood of 24-26 BH and can be used in a tight bore up to 1700 without gas checks or plating. If you are casting your own slugs with the most common alloy that being clip-on WW with no hardening metal added then the BN will be around 12-14, My own personal velocity limit for these is around 1450, that being said I prefer 1100-1300 just to be sure the lead stick-um is non existent. With soft pure lead I would never exceed 1100.

Now a word on the bore tightness thingy...Even a low pressure load in the 20,000 ft. lb. area will wash lead from a hard cast bullet if the bore is a somewhat loose fit...the softer the lead the worse the wash-out is and more lead is deposited in the barrel. This is the reason every cast shooting manual ever published has a paragraph extolling the virtues of slugging a bore and using a cast slug that is nominally 2 thou over bore size.

After all that I will add that Powder Coating has very much made it easier to use cast bullets of most any alloy in most any decent bore.
Click to expand...

https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1633088-So-what-are-you-casting-for-your-45-70?p=14807621&viewfull=1#post14807621

You can push flat base bullets past 1500, these are powder coated at 1800fps
 
Based on some research - Marlin 1895’s have relatively tight bores. I suppose I will buy some plated and some Missouri 405gr and compare. I have a 325gr Lyman mold and .459 sizer. Baby steps...
 
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So just out of curiosity, I'll be loading 405gr Missouri cast bullets and if I gas check them, would it not solve several problems common to lead bullets such as leading in the barrel + I could push for higher velocities assuming load data allows for it ?
 
IMR4320 said:
So just out of curiosity, I'll be loading 405gr Missouri cast bullets and if I gas check them, would it not solve several problems common to lead bullets such as leading in the barrel + I could push for higher velocities assuming load data allows for it ?
Click to expand...

Are they a gas check design bullet? If so, I would use a gas check. While I have had success in other calibers shooting gas check design without a gas check, they went haywire pretty quick at anything more than pedestrian speed. Maybe it was the size or lube or?? but they did much better with a gas check.
 
They are plain base - cannot be gas checked.

I am going to use SR4759 at 1200-1400fps and watch for leading.
 
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Would powder coating the lead bullet solve the problem? No personal experience with rifle cartridges, but I push 200 grain bullets at 1850 to 1900 fps out of my Thomson Contender in 357 maximum. No leading at all.
 
saskgunowner101 said:
Are they a gas check design bullet? If so, I would use a gas check. While I have had success in other calibers shooting gas check design without a gas check, they went haywire pretty quick at anything more than pedestrian speed. Maybe it was the size or lube or?? but they did much better with a gas check.
Click to expand...

It looks like they are not gas checked so they will have to be loaded up as they are following the data and observed for barrel leading & pressure signs.
 
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