Need helping choosing black rifle

precisionshooter

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My first choice was to get Rick over at ATRS to build me one of his sweet ar-15's. but spending all that money to only be able to shoot it at a range is making me look at a non-restricted black rifle (if that makes sense). im in debate over
1) the ever so popular swiss arms black special. but don't know where to get all the after market acessories i.e. quad rail, ar adapter for mags, different stock like a telescopic stock but then you would need an ar adapter i think? i could be wrong.

2) hk sl-8 like wise where do you get the aftermarket goods?

3) bennelli Mr1 also where do you get the aftermarket goods?

if you have any input on the accuracy of these rifles, pros and cons, acessability to after market parts and who sells it, any input would be helpful. and i dont like the xcr or the cz, just dont like the feel. i know ill get a couple why don't you get an xcr. there nice but just not for me.;)
 
choices

There is also the AR-180,similar to AR and a good reputation as well. As a long time shooter I would also advise getting what you realy want,an(AR15),cause you will buy something else and still want an AR. Plus...probably 9/10 people I know with non-restricted black rifles are at the range anyhow and never use them anywhere else anyhow.Don't let the restricted thing scare you,its no big deal.
Short story for you: I sold my non res. because everytime I took it out some moron called the game wardens or RCMP cause I was coyote hunting with an "assault rifle" when it was only an SL8(turned out to be more hassle than going to the range anyhow)
 
I'm in a big toss up over my next rifle... non-restricted or restricted. Could I use the NR? Sure... maybe once every 3 years as I'm pretty much a range only shooter. The restricted I'll have more fun with, but it will be a range only gun, which it does bother me to have that limitation on a rifle.

Right now, my choice is between the Sig Arms Classic Green in either full length or carbine length. I can't make up my mind, but I still have a little while until it gets ordered.

NEA is building a lower receiver for the PE90 rifle that uses AR mags(http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=484780), but right now is only offered in a configuration that would force you to use an AR stock instead of your factory folder.
 
You can pick anyone of these.
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The Classic Green is now on sale for $2999 which I got last X'mas.
Tavor is pretty hard to get now.
Haven't seen the Colt much often now. But there is a lots of good alternatives.
 
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Epoxy7 has a Tavor that I've shot using PCM ammo, it was really accurate for what the gun is.
The AR is the only black gun that will put all bullets in 1 hole at 100 meters but you'll need a bull barrel and floating front end(DI that make the difference).

We have yet to see our Swiss arms and SL8's surpass the AR.

Hell I bought a Norinco AR for s**ts and giggles for my wife and it shoots just as well as the Swiss/SL8/Tavor. I was getting 2-1/4" 10 round groups at 100meters with a 4moa dot strikefire.

M1A/M-14 might be something to think about as they can drop tasty animals.
 
its a cz 858 actually lol but yea it has a very good reputation for reliability and accuracy is supposedly not too shabby.

I just stick with my sks tho haha.

I had an hk sl8 but had to sell it due to monetary issues, however it was my favorite rifle besides being a .223. (i have yet to be made a fan of the .223 cartridge).

If i come by some money the next black rifle for me will probably be a robinson xcr-m or a kel tec rfb, which are both .308 cal black rifles. which I would consider if you are a hunter.
 
The AR is the only black gun that will put all bullets in 1 hole at 100 meters but you'll need a bull barrel and floating front end(DI that make the difference).

Sure 1 hole groups at 100m.
Maybe with 1 round groups, with ten round groups I have never seen it with any rifle and doubt I ever will.
 
Sure 1 hole groups at 100m.
Maybe with 1 round groups, with ten round groups I have never seen it with any rifle and doubt I ever will.

Epoxy7 and I have the same guns that will shoot 1 hole. DND Armalite AR-10, 5 round groups with Fed gold clone ammo.

I didn't say anything about 10 round groups in 1 hole, "I was getting 2-1/4" 10 round groups at 100meters with a 4moa dot strikefire."

2 & 1/4 inch group

That should fix it.
 
If you are hell bent on customization and accessories, the AR platform is the way to go, it's like man Lego. Don't build a full blown custom AR for your first. Thats like having ### for your first time with the hottest chick you can find, you need to find a practice girl first. Start at the bottom, learn, and work your way up. You can start out buying parts now and have a $1,100 to $1,500 AR thats reliable and affordable. Then you upgrade over time.
 
You could buy my AR180B off the EE - it's all ready to go and shoots like a laser beam, or if you would live with a restricted AR15, you can build a decent one for under $1000 as follows:

Aero Precision stripped lower and upper from Armseast = $260
DPMS M4 chrome lined 14.5" bbl from ATRS including front sight and barrel nut = $330
LPK, milspec stock kit, upper parts kit and gas system split between 2 orders = $200 at Brownells
Stag Arms complete bolt assembly = $175 from Armsest

By my math that's about $965, but you'd have to assemble it yourself. Pick up an LMT lookalike NCStar rear BUIS from GP Tactical for $30 and you're in the AR game with all north american made parts (except BUIS) for under $900, of course you do have a little more to spend on taxes and shipping, but that's a given no matter what you buy new.

Or you can wait 2 or 3 more months as NEA is purportedly releasing an all-canadian made M4-style AR15 with billet upper and lower for under $1000. They are also going to release a non-chrome lined M4 style barrel for about $175 and S&J hardware is selling AR15 barrels for about $220. Of course, on these last two barrels you will need to supply your own gas block and a front sight of some flavour if you want one.

Then if you are really on a budget, there is the CQ series of Norinco AR15's which are probably just fine for killing paper, though fit and finish leaves a little to be desired. Typically ready to go out of the box for about $700 plus tax and ship.

Personally, I like building using known-quantity parts and can duplicate the 'rinco for a couple-hundred more using north american made in-spec parts, so that's the route I generally go and have shied away from the Norc - only because of philosophical reasons. My M14 receivers are all Chinese and I feel bad enough about that, so I shy away from their AR's where comparable alternatives are available.

I've shot the XCR enough to know I never want one with fasteners coming loose during strings, known reliability issues and the lovely (horrid) robarm lack of customer service.

If you want to go spendy and non-restricted, my personal advice would be to look at the following guns, in no particular order:

1) A used AR180B where someone else has eaten all the depreciation on installing uber-cool stuff. Not the best of the non-restricted AR's, but more customizable than most, affordable, and pretty accurate.
2) HK SL8-4 or -5, new or used. I'd steer clear of G36 clones because they are pricey and don't shoot any better than a standard SL8. The basic SL8-5 is a gun with many of the earlier issues worked out and they shoot tiny groups. That being said, it's maybe the only commonly encountered .223 black rifle I've never owned or demo'd
3) Swiss Arms. I like the quality of build, but for a .223 it's about 60% too heavy, has few accessories, and is very picky about what ammo it likes. Also proprietary mags that sometimes crack for $100 a pop unless you want to outlay $500+ for an AR magwell aftermarket lower. Had one and sold it. Better stuff out there for the money.
4) Tavor. Bullpup coolness, but not as accurate as other options (like the non-bullpups or even the FS2000). Horrible trigger. Expensive rifle for what it offers and some take only proprietary mounts. Those that like them really like them. I tried one a buddy lent me for a few weeks and I was happy to return it to him as I HATED the trigger.
5) FS2000 - fat like that girl you picked up at the club but you didn't want your buddies to find out about. Short on features, but accurate and nicely ambidextrous. A bit overpriced like all FN stuff, but a fun little rifle.
6) SU-16 - ugly and not yet on the market up here.
7) Benelli MR1 - Ugly. Maybe the most non-black rifle looking black rifle ever. It looks like a 12 gauge shotgun with a cotton barrel tumble dried high to shrink it. The stock reminds me of something from ATI that should be on a K-Marted SKS. I demo'd one and never again. Accuracy was marginal compared to most other black rifles. Price is attractive though.
8) KelTec RFB - cool gun, but in .308 and takes metric FAL mags that while plentiful in the US are harder to find up here. Also very expensive for what it is.

Of those listed, if I could not own an AR15 and had to buy new, I'd likely get an SL8-5 with an AR15 mag well conversion. Either that or a used AR180B. Of those I've owned I only still have an AR180B that's been heavily modified for accurate shooting, but more often than not I bring an AR15 when I head to the range.

Hope that helps. Caveat is that these assessments are just my opinion. Other may (and definitely will) disagree with me.
 
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The 5.56 version of the Czech Small Arms Vz.58 looks promising, given that an adapter to take AR magazines will soon be on the market. Mounting an AR stock gives them a feel more like western military-type rifles.
 
In my experience, if your first choice is an AR15, the other options will not quench your AR15 thirst. You may get one of the others and still find yourself buying an AR15 down the road.

On the other hand I have handled a Tavor and a couple of AR180’s. Booth have their own merits and set backs. The Tavor is very nice, but I find it awkward to shoot. The AR180 is a good value and very AR15 like, but I find its overall quality to be lower then the others.
 
4) Tavor. Bullpup coolness, but not as accurate as other options (like the non-bullpups or even the FS2000). Horrible trigger. Expensive rifle for what it offers and some take only proprietary mounts. Those that like them really like them. I tried one a buddy lent me for a few weeks and I was happy to return it to him as I HATED the trigger.

No argument, the trigger could see some improvement. Expensive? The XCR doesn't even come with the prerequisite loctite. :)

5) FS2000 - fat like that girl you picked up at the club but you didn't want your buddies to find out about. Short on features, but accurate and nicely ambidextrous. A bit overpriced like all FN stuff, but a fun little rifle.

Haha, be nice! While a bit bulkier ("hey, I'm big-boned!"), the FS2000 is probably the most ergonomic bullpup out there. And really accurate - especially the ones Questar has with the match-grade barrels. Plus you can also remove the front hand guard and substitute a factory tri-rail for more mounting options.

In my experience, if your first choice is an AR15, the other options will not quench your AR15 thirst.

Yep. Once bit the AR bug is hard to get out of your system...
 
Here are a few of my toys:

BlackRifles.jpg


Top is the AR180B with a Leupod Tactical 8.5x20. It is shoots dime sized groups at 100M. Of course, it is a great gopher and cayotee rifle. It is a keeper!

The middle one is a Dlask. I am not sure if they still make them. The ACCOG will give me near dime sized group at 100M. I will put it up for sale this week as I like the next one more. It will be $3k less the sight, what I paid for. I only put 50 rounds through it to set in the sight!

The bottom one is a ATRS custom with a 14 inch match barrel. WOW! What a a nice piece built by ATRS! I even got my own personal serial number. Both front and rear sights are US Marine issue which I got from a US Gov contract supplier. Don't ask! The electronic sight is not what my eyesight agrees with but it still does group well with PMC 62 gr. It is a keeper! It has a bunch of extras that don't come with most other builds! I will transfer the ACCOG to the ATRS, as it is easier on my bad eyes!

So, if you have a Restricted PAL, you have to start with an AR platform and then wait for a deal on a AR180B and build it up. It will cost some to do it right with either one!

Don't forget that: The one with the most toys, wins!

Regards,
Henry:cool:
 
Black rifles are cool :) Here's some recent stock photos of a couple I have at the moment - I have others but am too lazy to dig out of the safe - lol.

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