Need info USA, Carbine, 30M1, Semi-Automatic USA / I.R. Co. WB-LP- 2941

[Camp Cook]

Can anyone tell me about this firearm I will be taking possession of it in a few weeks unfortunately I do not have pictures the RCMP in British Columbia are in possession of it now?

USA, Carbine, 30M1, Semi-Automatic USA / I.R. Co. WB-LP- 2941

The inscription "WB-LP" stands for West Berlin Liberation Police

I am told it is in museum quality serial # is 4797***

It is classed as restricted.

Thanks for any info.

CC

 

[billbmcleod]

I suspect maybe an Ingersol-Rand but how did you latch on to this piece of history.
I am no M 1 expert either.

 

[Camp Cook]

My friend is American lives in the states his dad lived in the interior of BC dad had the collection he died friend is executor of will but can't take possession of these firearms because he is an american.

I'm taking them for now so they are not destroyed we will then figure out what to do with them sell them or export them to the states.

 

[Camp Cook]

I got this info from another site.

WB=WURTTEMBERG-BADEN LP=LANDPOLIZEI or Rural Police. The numbers after that are inventory in nature. All of this according to Jim Mock's website on Austrian and German carbines or as they also are known as Bavarian Carbines.

It sounds like you have a Quality Hardware with an IRCO ( International Register Co.) rear sight. Post some pictures when it gets out of impound as Bavarian carbines are one of the more intriguing aspects of the M1 carbine story.

 

[jody_v]

From the SN you've provided it does indeed indicate it's a QH carbine, 4th Block production, assembled between Oct 1943 - Mar 1944. I respect that it may be it great shape but the fact that it has gone through a post war and Barvarian rebuild, makes it an unlikely candidate as a museum piece. Really just another postwar rebuilt carbine.

 

[jody_v]

I suspect maybe an Ingersol-Rand but how did you latch on to this piece of history.
I am no M 1 expert either.

Ingersol-Rand did not make M1 carbines and I'm assuming the 'I.R.' is stamped on the rear (adjustable) sight. To determine the make of a M1 Carbine, one would need to look under the rear sight, which is usually next to impossible. Hence the reason we reference the SN to determine the make.

 

[Camp Cook]

From the SN you've provided it does indeed indicate it's a QH carbine, 4th Block production, assembled between Oct 1943 - Mar 1944. I respect that it may be it great shape but the fact that it has gone through a post war and Barvarian rebuild, makes it an unlikely candidate as a museum piece. Really just another postwar rebuilt carbine.

I know nothing about these firearms can you share how you know its a rebuild?

 

[enefgee]

Is the rear sight a peep, or a notch? Bavarian Carbines are normally fitted with a fine notch - very similar to a Mauser rear.

 

[Camp Cook]

I haven't seen it yet I've asked for a picture I'll post it if the Const sends me one.

 

[chillyrabbit]

From the SN you've provided it does indeed indicate it's a QH carbine, 4th Block production, assembled between Oct 1943 - Mar 1944. I respect that it may be it great shape but the fact that it has gone through a post war and Barvarian rebuild, makes it an unlikely candidate as a museum piece. Really just another postwar rebuilt carbine.

German M1 carbines are interesting history wise, and if it actually served with the Berlin police it might be a very interesting and unique specimen.

This website is tracking down some "mysteries" of M1 carbine history.

The Mystery of the U.S. Carbines from West Berlin

In January 1960 the U.S. Army ordered 2,784 M1/M2 carbines for use by the West Berlin Police. As the weapons arrived they were stored at Andrews Barracks and Tempelhof Airfield in the American Sector, and at the Olympic Stadium which was to be a rallying point in the event of a war. 915 of the M1/M2 carbines were allocated for the E-Kommandos, 1869 of the M1/M2 carbines were allocated for Force B (Bereitschaftspolizei aka BEPO). [personal notes kept by officers and the command of the West Berlin Police]

When construction of the Berlin Wall started in August 1961, American forces began distributing weapons.

Horst von Domarus is a retired Berlin police officer who served with BEPO as an armorer. He recalls the weapons were received in September 1961 and all weapons were marked with the West Berlin Police star on the rear sight platform just forward of the carbine's rear sight by him and other armorers. The Berlin Police star has often been referred to as the Berlin sunburst or Berlin flower, based on it's appearance. The Berlin star appears on the Berlin Police belt buckle, helmet insignia, and shoulder patches.


The outer star on the buckle was stamped on the weapons used by the police in West Berlin. To the right is an example of the marking on a Walther P1 pistol.

simulated example of West Berlin P star on an M1 Carbine
simulated example of West Berlin star on an M1 Carbine
The Mystery: Where did the U.S. Carbines used by West Berlin go?
In late 1966 or early 1967 Horst von Domarus and others assigned to BEPO cleaned the American weapons and drove them to Andrews Barracks, where they returned all of them to the U.S. Army, while other German police units in West Berlin did likewise. When the carbines and other weapons were returned to the U.S. Army, the Berlin star was still on them.

If you have seen, own, or know of a U.S. Carbine with this marking, please contact me.

 

[jody_v]

I know nothing about these firearms can you share how you know its a rebuild?

Given that SN range, it would have been issued with a rear flip sight and not an adjustable sight as indicated. After the war many carbines went through a rebuild process where a rear adjustable sight replaced the flip sight and a bayonet lug was added.

 

[jody_v]

German M1 carbines are interesting history wise, and if it actually served with the Berlin police it might be a very interesting and unique specimen.

This website is tracking down some "mysteries" of M1 carbine history.

I'll concede there may be some interest by some in Bavarian M1 Carbines, but most collectors are generally interested in the ones that were never altered for use by the Germans. If they come up on the EE, they are usually priced lower than an equivalent USGI model and can take longer to sell. Often the Germans restamped many of the parts with matching numbers (something they liked to do) which further detaches from its original form.

 

[Hitzy]

Here is a link with some pics of the rear sights
http://www.bavarianm1carbines.com/oddities.html

 

[chillyrabbit]

I'll concede there may be some interest by some in Bavarian M1 Carbines, but most collectors are generally interested in the ones that were never altered for use by the Germans. If they come up on the EE, they are usually priced lower than an equivalent USGI model and can take longer to sell. Often the Germans restamped many of the parts with matching numbers (something they liked to do) which further detaches from its original form.

It does depend on the collectors interest, there are probably more WW2 collectors than postwar rebuild collectors. But I do think the post war rebuilds can have a collectors status of their own like ones that saw police service overseas, the japanese made howa carbines, the german ones, etc.