Need some FTR rifle reloading advice

M

MartyK2500

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Today I got out to shoot the first 30 rounds out of my new rifle, all was well and dandy until I got home.
I usually take the first visit as an opportunity to check velocities on the lower end of the charges as I move up, test function, zero scope etc...
But when I got home to create my spec sheet out of fired brass, I was realizing that my ammo is awfully long with only a 20 thou jump.

Got my best caliper out and starter making measurements, it turns out that the bearing surface of the bullet is only 1/3 (if even) inside the case neck.
These are the newer pointy 200gn SMK.
Went of Berger's website, and both 200.20X and 200 hybrids have got almost the same bullet base to ogive distance and about the same bearing area.

This Fclass game is new to me, and wondering if I'm failing to grasp something simple here.
I was under the impression that jumping was bad in this game, and if I want my bullet bearing surface to go over 3/4 way into that neck I will be into the 100 thou+ jump.

Is there a bullet that could serve me better? 1:9 twist btw.
Am I overthinking this and either lot's of jump or little bearing surface is unimportant?

Only shot and reloaded for magfed 6.5x47s and .308s in the last 4 years and never ran out of mag lenght to go touch the rifling if I would desire to.


Here is a reference picture.
Notice the black sharpie, I marked the casing neck, showing the portion of the bullet bearing portion inside the neck.
We could say the boat tail ends where the shoulder starts right under the neck.

fttShiv.jpg
 
You did not mention how your groups and velocities were - if they were satisfactory to you, what you you trying to fix?? I do not have your rifle here - so no reason to believe what I do or do not do will work in yours, nor that what is best in yours will work well in mine??
 
What I am asking in my original post, among other shooters (preferably those who compete), is it normal to settle with so much jump or so little bearing surface?
100M groups we're bugholed, but don't feel like going through all the tuning at longer ranges if I have a flawed chamber OR bullet choice to start off with...
 
I have never competed, so what could I know? But a regular poster on this site, who has competed (a lot) and has won International competitions, has posted several times that to know what your set-up is doing at 300, 600 or 1,000 yards, that you actually have to shoot targets at those ranges. The holes in the targets, out there, are pretty much telling you the truth of what you have got going on...
 
I get the having to shoot at those ranges to see how it goes, been through this with 3 other rifles.
Just don't want to end up chasing my tail if my starting situation is doomed to start off with, I'll save the time and components if I can.

Another poster PM'd me, seems like the Berger 208gn Long Range hybrid are worth a look.
With a 10 thou shorter boat tail, and 80 thous longer from bullet base to Ogive, it seems like it would solve this situation, if it's a problem worth solving to start off with...

Edit, after researching about the Berger 208gn #30485, I am quite excited to try it.
Seems like it's a new and shinny product from Berger, and in my situation I have ample troat space to try it!
 
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CGN is a great resource, but might not be the best resource for your question. You’ll get a (potential) ton of responses, with no idea of the posters actual experience.

Were you out shooting with other f class shooters, or testing at the range? If you were shooting with other f class shooters, they’re the best ones to ask. The only people shooting sierras here are tr shooters, none of the local f class guys are using sierras. I’ve been told the Berger 215’s can’t be beat, if you get them going fast enough.

Take this for what is worth(nothing), but I think you worry too much about your ammo from following your other threads. You’ll drop more points to wind, than your waterline.
 
For the moment I was out on my own.
Connaught is still closed due to covid.

Since April 2020, I have no competitions ahead of me.
So my only source of pleasure for the moment is reading, learning and experimenting with the whole reloading process.
While having downtime may as well learn as much as I can about it.

I do agree though, once Connaught reopens I have to put 95% of my efforts for finding perfect loads aside, and just go out and have at er at 900M.

By the way I know no other Fclass shooters, simply decided to jump into the sport feet first, and worst case scenario I will still end up with a nice 308 rifle for other uses.
 
One thing I would do is chronograph some loads to determine the actual velocity, and then use computer tables to study the effect of wind at long range.
 
I had always read, one caliber deep not including the boat tail. My ammo has large jumps, I am not an F class shooter. You could make a dummy round and cycle it in the rifle over and over and check for any change in BTOG and also for a change in run out at your current 20 jump.
 
Lead hammer said:
I had always read, one caliber deep not including the boat tail. My ammo has large jumps, I am not an F class shooter. You could make a dummy round and cycle it in the rifle over and over and check for any change in BTOG and also for a change in run out at your current 20 jump.
Click to expand...


After searching quite a bit last night, I got to the same conclusion, as in seating not far from 1 caliber deep.
I ordered the Berger 208s anyways, little did I know, they we’re brand new for 2020.
Even have a higher BC than the 200.20x and allegedly more stable.

This new bullet, has a boat tail 10 thou shorter than my 200SMK, and over 70 thous more for both base to ogive and bearing surface.

Which would have me seated 70-80 thous more into the neck, we’ll see once it gets here!
 
I’m not sure where you’re at, so it might be too far, but I know the Quebec Provincial Rifle Association is shooting again. It might be worth trying to make it out with them. I’m hearing rumours Connaught may not open this year.
 
Good Evening

1st things 1st you need to find where the bullet touches the lands. The video shows the most consistent repeatable method.
Did you throat for a long jump or different bullet?
Jumping or Jamming either or. find the seating depth that shows the best results (there should be two seating depth side by side that give the tightest groups).
Some bullets can take allot of jump. 155 Scenars 185 Bergers not familiar with the 200 Sierra smk.
Jamming the bullet into the lands will sometimes produce the best accuracy BUT in F class you will need to be aware of the CEASE FIRE rule requiring you to unload a live round. If you want test jam depths; set up a round (no primer no powder) load and unload the rifle, does the bullet stick in the rifling. test a couple of times. if it doesn't you can test jamming as a seating option.


Bullet / neck one caliber is a guideline (see wolfpup case) test shorter or longer. making your cases grip and release (interference fit) the bullet consistently is what you are trying to achieve.

Observations
You have given yourself a large hill to climb with the 9 twist barrel and 200smk. I have multiple 9 twist barrels and none of them shoot as tight as my 10 twists even with the same bullets. I believe for us FTR, 9 twist is just too fast.
200smk (new batch) the community has tested and moved on. Not sure why they don't work but they give so so results.

If you can get them with your long throat try the 200 berger hybrids. Honestly even with the long throat because this is your first FTR rifle i would get the Berger 185's they are easy to tune and you will be happier with the results until you are confident with the rifle, your reloading, and rifle handling skills.

Cheers
Trevor
 
Hi Marty,

As with everything in shooting, it's about balance. Nothing is perfect for everything. There is always some sort of compromise.

If you were running a repeater, I would be more concerned about how much of the bearing surface is in the neck.

Since you are specific to F Class, its not such a concern.

Let's look at the good...

The long seating depth allows you to maximize your powder charge and hit velocities that you could not hit with a shorter seating depth.

The bearing surface is also sitting well into the freebore which acts like a bushing to align the bullet to the rifling. If the bullet enters the rifling straight, it tends to fly straight.

So those are both positives for a guy who wants both speed and accuracy.

You can also test other bullet profiles to see which will seat deeper into the neck, but dont let that be the sole factor to determine acceptability.

You also have enough throat to run even heavier bullets if you want to.

However it came to be that you have such a long throat, there is a lesson here... First is that you design your own reamer. That is not as hard as some might assume and reamers are really not all that expensive.

Every time I have ever chambered a rifle without using my own reamer, I have lived to regret it.

If you already know what bullet you want to use, then seat it into a case to the seating depth you want and mail it to your reamer manufacturer. He will make sure the reamer will suit that bullet angle and seating depth.

For now, it would seem that you have lots of latitude for seating depth and your problem at hand remains in finding what seating depth provides the best accuracy with the lowest velocity spread. Just focus on that and work the problem.

Make sure no matter what that if you don't have much neck engagement, that you have enough neck tension to pull a round out of the chamber.

Thinking that long nose Berger might be the reason for such a long seating depth. If you cant work with it, just try other bullets with a different nose profile.
 
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nbmonte said:
I’m not sure where you’re at, so it might be too far, but I know the Quebec Provincial Rifle Association is shooting again. It might be worth trying to make it out with them. I’m hearing rumours Connaught may not open this year.
Click to expand...
I belive the nationals are being held at keith Cunningham's this year, but will confirm that
Cat
 
ORA matches are PRA, not national, but nevertheless serious competition.
Anyone interested should certainly make contact with the ORA.
Heaven only knows when or if DND ranges will be made available
 
My understanding is there will be no F Class at Cunningham's for the provincials... Just TR shooters. (Maybe the range does not have enough firing points?)
I hope that is not true, but that's what I was told.

The story is that the ORA separated from the DCRA for some reason. (Does not make sense to me how that is even possible.)
Again... I hope that is not true... If you know different, please clarify.
 
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I am involved with OSA at MilCun; not ORA, so I cannot speak on their behalf.
There are 7 target carriers in the butts. At 3 to a target, relays of 21 would be possible. Two to a target, relays of 14 are comfortable.

If DND ranges are unavailable, MilCun Training Center is one of the very few privately owned facilities with proper butts.

Anyone interested should certainly make their arrangements with the ORA.

The OSA schedule is posted on the OSA website - osacanada.ca. Registration is through Eventbrite; events are booking up fast.
 
Maple57 has provided some awesome information.

Optimal bullet seating depth is very important IMO. That is why a lot of F-Class Competitors own custom reamers matched to the bullet they shoot. Having enough neck tension/engagement on your bullet contributes to consistency and accuracy, having optimal seating depth increases your ability to test the varying degrees of seating depth for optimal accuracy, have optimal seating depth optimizes powder density and prolongs the use of your barrel with a particular bullet.

Here's a scenario, in your case after load testing, practicing, going to competition and you have a several more hundred rounds of ammo down your barrel, your throat will erode and eventually you'll find that you can't seat the 200.20x out far enough for your 20th jump (you run out of bearing surface case engagement), you will have to seat deeper to find your next best node for seating depth accuracy using the same bullet or move to a bullet that fits more optimally to give you more life out of your barrel.

The trend with few bullet manufacturers is to increase the bullet length, reducing the bearing surface to increase BC. IMO shorter bearing surface bullets let the 200.20x, Sierra 2231 200grn a lot of people found it hard to to tune, and I believe it has to do with the amount of tension on the bearing surface and how it's seated in relations to the lands. However, this creates issues as not all chambers are cut alike with varying throat lengths that is why some people find it finicky to tune. Having to the seat a bullet further out it doesn't take a lot of force to change the concentricity of your bullet, if it is "dangling" on the mouth of the case like a smoker with a cigarette on tips of their lip, transportation to a match, change in air density/pressure, could affect your seating depth or even some cases via an accident knock a bullet out. That is why a lot of competitors (travelling to a distant match) seat it long and re-seat the bullet to the desired length at the match, you might not have this option. This is even more important if you're planning to ship your ammo ahead of the match (Nationals for example especially if you're flying).

With your 1:9 I think you got enough twist to stabilize all the bullets on the market high BC bullets, however with the long throats you'll find it hard to seat shorter bearing bullets like the Sierra or 200 KP Jacks.

Good luck and all the best.
 
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