Need tips re shooting my "antique" Parker Hale 1853

[cantom]

I recently picked up this unfired NOS Parker Hale 1853 rifle musket, made in England early in production.(3### s/n range)

Next Saturday I am planning to shoot it at the club black powder shoot.
I have 3 different types of bullets.

1) The ones that came with my PH Musketoon.
2) Some I recently bought from Road King.
3) The packet of original bullets that came with the Parker Hale new.

All are .577 or .58 minie balls, hollow base.

I had shot bullets from group 1 in an original 1853 rifle(or musket, couldn't see any rifling) last year, and I had to actually pound them down the barrel with the ramrod, they were far from a loose fit.

In the book Death to the French I was reading, the soldier Dodds had a mallet he uses to pound the ramrod down his Baker rifle barrel to get the bullet through the tight rifling, let's face it, you're cutting lead and actually rifling the bullet as you push it home.

Now, I tried all 3 bullets into the PH muzzle with my fingers yesterday. All are tight, none will just fall in. Surprisingly, the PH original bullets were probably the tightest of the 3. So, this is as intended.

I got a bullet starter through the kind efforts of my buddy SchneidersAuto. Thus hopefully I can get them to start down.
What to do then, should I bring a dead blow hammer and actually tap the ramrod? Maybe with say a fired off shotgun hull over the small end of the rod?
Rawhide mallet?

I know there can be no air space, it has to be tight on the powder, but not banged on so hard that you're deforming the bullet.

Also, lube? I have the remnants of some Remington Black Powder Wonder Lube.

Some use Becel light margarine?

Any tips appreciated.

 

[Denisb]

Any more like this around? I found with the ones I've shot that a regular .577 minie fits fine. Make sure you lube the bullet properly.

 

[cantom]

Any more like this around? I found with the ones I've shot that a regular .577 minie fits fine. Make sure you lube the bullet properly.

A member on here mentioned this was for sale in Medicine Hat...I was on it like a fat kid on a Smartie...
Not something you're going to find every day...I was and am pretty happy.

 

[#1bcshooter]

Nice reproduction
When did Parker-Hale make those ?

 

[cantom]

Nice reproduction
When did Parker-Hale make those ?

Starting in the late sixties or early seventies, PH made these in England. Later in production, they shifted to Italy.

BTW, I've been told that stock colour and metal finish matches the originals from the pattern room. That's what the originals looked like when new.

You can still buy a new Parker Hale 1853 from Navy Arms, made in Italy.

http://forums.gunboards.com/archive/index.php/t-18280.html

h ttp://www.navyarms.com/ph_enfields.html

 

[BUSHMAN79]

Ohh, something is terribly wrong with your bullets! Mine came with two bags of Minie bullets, with a label that said .577 Snider, and I think an address in Ontario...(???) I'll have to look for the label. Anyway, I dipped each one into melted beeswax, and so lubed, they were a thumb press fit in the muzzle.

Worked so good, at the last BP shoot we shot it all day, without cleaning, 70gr. ffg, and it was as accurate and easy to load on the last shot as it was the first. In fact, it was the only gun there that consistently hit the 100yd. gong, and also the 200yd. gong. Much better than all the T/C Hawkens, for sure! Went through about 55 of the bullets, no misfires, either.

Great muskets, worth whatever you pay for them.

 

[Steppenwolf]

Beautiful musket, you have a habit of finding good items.

 

[wr.sainsbury]

parker hale

greetings-shot a trail at heffley with a friend using the same piece. his preferred load was .565 round ball, 18 thou patch and 65 grains of fffg. the man was very accurate with the piece- so much so that i went out and bought one as well in hopes of emulating his results. regards, bill

 

[stevejones]

Lyman Parker Hale mold

I use the Lyman Minnie that is designed for the Parker Hale muskets. I cannot remember the model number but there is a "PH" in the mold. I never have to drive mine down. The idea to the Minnie was that it could be loaded faster and give much better accuracy than a round ball.I'm not sure why your minnies are so tight but I think there may be a problem with them though I suspect that once you get them down the muzzle they will almost fall down due the the Parker Hale progressive rifling. I use Becel margarine and it is the best Minnie lube I have ever used.

Cheers. Steve.

 

[cantom]

I use the Lyman Minnie that is designed for the Parker Hale muskets. I cannot remember the model number but there is a "PH" in the mold. I never have to drive mine down. The idea to the Minnie was that it could be loaded faster and give much better accuracy than a round ball.I'm not sure why your minnies are so tight but I think there may be a problem with them though I suspect that once you get them down the muzzle they will almost fall down due the the Parker Hale progressive rifling. I use Becel margarine and it is the best Minnie lube I have ever used.

Cheers. Steve.

The funny thing is, the same minnie's that won't quite insert into the PH muzzle (I'm not pushing hard, I don't want it to actually go in and get stuck) will fall right into my Snider Enfield barrel. Same barrel, same calibre I thought? Although there may be a big difference between a new one and 150 year old one obviously.
Interesting point about the progressive rifling...maybe it gets easier once started?

 

[10x]

You do not "pound" bullets down the bore of a fine rifle like that. A lubed mini should slid down right on to the powder with a gentle push on the ramrod.
A round ball with a linen patch should take a bump from a short starter and slide down very nicely with a bit more pressure.
Pounding the ramrod to get the bullet to the powder just may bend the ramrod and may also damage rifling.
Find a bullet that matches the bore. A 0.560 or 0.565 round ball with a strong cotton or linen patch should slide down very easily.

That is a fine rifle you have - it does not need the bullet pounded down.

BTW: don't even think of using the Lee Real bullet in this gun. It will hang up on fouling and give you grief getting the ball out. IF you get a "hung ball" or leave space over the powder and fire it there is a very good chance you will burst the barrel.

 

[stevejones]

Larger size minnies

Are all the minnies tough to get down the muzzle or just the ones that came with it? There may be a chance that they have been cast with wheel weight lead. I have found that it will cast noticeably larger than pure lead. that being said minnies need some tin when cast to help the lead flow better. About 16% tin is what the British used in theirs (I think..). Oh by the way, LIGHT Becel.

Cheers. Steve.

 

[icanuck]

I found one of these back in July of this year. It was also new in box unfired made in 1978 and came with the PH bullet mold. An incredible find I might say. Here she is:

I had a custom range rod made for it out of brass to protect it and got a spinjag in 58 for it as well. I've taken it out twice since receiving it and here's what I've tried so far.

I don't have the time to cast so I have a local bullet seller name R&R Bullets in Maitland Ontario and he's provided 560 grain .575 Lyman PH mold Minies, 460 grain Lyman 575213(OS) Minies, and .570 round balls. I've read that FFFG is cleaner to shoot but reduce my loads by about 10% so that's what I started with.

I've only tried the 560 grainers and round ball so far. I started at 30 grains FFFG to see what I got at 25 yards with the Minie. It tumbled. Up to 40 grains, bingo, straight in. At 40 grains I moved to 100 yards to see what I got. It was about 8" low. Upped it until the sights were on elevation wise, at 65 grains FFFG. Windage on the sights are bang on. Best group was at 50 grains about 3" below the aim point. Best 100 yard group size was off sandbags and measured 6 or so inches. At a 100 I couldn't get the PRB on paper. I tried a few various charges up to 80, but I figure I'd save that for another day. The 575213 are up the next time I'm out with it. I've read that you have to keep the charge reasonable with the 575213 as it's easy to blow out the skirt. I look forward to finding out.

I lubed the base of the bullets and the cannalures with Wonder Lube. It's all I had on hand. I picked up some beeswax and crisco lube from a fellow nut and will try that next time. The bullet loads fairly easy. It's kinda hard to describe accurately. It pushes into the muzzle with light push from my thumb. It doesn't fall on it's own, yet only requires a few pounds of pressure to push it down the bore. I find this the whole time I'm shooting. I've shot 40 some through it in a day without cleaning and it was the same loading pressure on the last shot as it was on the first. These are a hell of a lot of fun to shoot. I like it so much I have a PH 1858 Naval pattern made in the seventies as well due in December.

I'd like to know your experience as you learn as well.

 

[cantom]

Icanuck- thanks much for this post! Very good stuff...couldn't have hoped for better.
Interesting that yours came with a PH mould...mine didn't sadly, just that Lee one.

Nice rifle btw!

I was wondering why there wasn't a nipple protector...glad to see yours didn't have one either, I guess that's how PH shipped them.
I installed one today, that was left over from my Musketoon. To my eye the rifle looks naked without one.

I'm planning a load of about 70 grains of Pioneer FFG and we'll see if I can hit with that.

Why the range rod? Is the stock ramrod likely to damage the barrel even if the bullets go down smoothly? I guess just to keep the ramrod unscratched and pristine?

I'll keep your bullet source in mind, especially if he has the actual PH bullet.

I had a custom range rod made for it out of brass to protect it and got a spinjag in 58 for it as well. I've taken it out twice since receiving it and here's what I've tried so far.

I don't have the time to cast so I have a local bullet seller name R&R Bullets in Maitland Ontario and he's provided 560 grain .575 Lyman PH mold Minies, 460 grain Lyman 575213(OS) Minies, and .570 round balls. I've read that FFFG is cleaner to shoot but reduce my loads by about 10% so that's what I started with.

I've only tried the 560 grainers and round ball so far. I started at 30 grains FFFG to see what I got at 25 yards with the Minie. It tumbled. Up to 40 grains, bingo, straight in. At 40 grains I moved to 100 yards to see what I got. It was about 8" low. Upped it until the sights were on elevation wise, at 65 grains FFFG. Windage on the sights are bang on. Best group was at 50 grains about 3" below the aim point. Best 100 yard group size was off sandbags and measured 6 or so inches. At a 100 I couldn't get the PRB on paper. I tried a few various charges up to 80, but I figure I'd save that for another day. The 575213 are up the next time I'm out with it. I've read that you have to keep the charge reasonable with the 575213 as it's easy to blow out the skirt. I look forward to finding out.

I lubed the base of the bullets and the cannalures with Wonder Lube. It's all I had on hand. I picked up some beeswax and crisco lube from a fellow nut and will try that next time. The bullet loads fairly easy. It's kinda hard to describe accurately. It pushes into the muzzle with light push from my thumb. It doesn't fall on it's own, yet only requires a few pounds of pressure to push it down the bore. I find this the whole time I'm shooting. I've shot 40 some through it in a day without cleaning and it was the same loading pressure on the last shot as it was on the first. These are a hell of a lot of fun to shoot. I like it so much I have a PH 1858 Naval pattern made in the seventies as well due in December.

I'd like to know your experience as you learn as well.

 

[cantom]

Thanks 10x, I'm listening. I won't pound it down and I'll treasure the rifling.

It's just that I had to do that with an antique musket last year, afraid this one is the same.

If there are issues I will buy smaller round balls and patch em.

Can't tell for sure till I get to the range and put powder in.

You do not "pound" bullets down the bore of a fine rifle like that. A lubed mini should slid down right on to the powder with a gentle push on the ramrod.
A round ball with a linen patch should take a bump from a short starter and slide down very nicely with a bit more pressure.
Pounding the ramrod to get the bullet to the powder just may bend the ramrod and may also damage rifling.
Find a bullet that matches the bore. A 0.560 or 0.565 round ball with a strong cotton or linen patch should slide down very easily.

That is a fine rifle you have - it does not need the bullet pounded down.

BTW: don't even think of using the Lee Real bullet in this gun. It will hang up on fouling and give you grief getting the ball out. IF you get a "hung ball" or leave space over the powder and fire it there is a very good chance you will burst the barrel.

 

[icanuck]

Reason I had the rod made was the gent I bought it from (a fellow CGN'r) and my smith really stressed making sure I protect the rifling. Both said this gun is as much an investment as it is a toy so I should take extra care of it. I'll post a pic of the rod when I get home tonight if your interested. Needs a few inches cut off, but makes loading and cleaning a snap.

I learned a few things from this site: researchpress.co.uk/firearms/british/enfield/management.htm and doing a ridiculous amount of reading on the interwebs.

I tried the nipple flash cup idea from the authors suggestion, but the one I had didn't work out well. I like the idea of containing the primer flash and residue. The one I had was too narrow and didn't let the nipple wrench seat well enough to secure it or the nipple in place. I'm going to keep looking for one like the author shows in the article though. If you decide to go that route, let me know, I'll pass along my findings.

I picked up the PH Enfield sergeants tool from Dixie Gunworks. Neat to have on hand and makes taking it apart pretty effortless.

The pics shown are from the day I got it in the mail. I've since put a nipple protector on mine too. I have a sling to put on it, but I have no idea how it goes on. Do you know? I like the look of the strap hanging under it, seems more authentic...

I also picked up the flush nipple (www.trackofthewolf.com/categories/partdetail.aspx?catid=14&subid=171&styleid=784&partnum=flush-nipple&as=1) from Track of the Wolf to help with cleaning it. It works pretty well. I don't have to take the barrel out and put it in a bucket of water like I do my New Englander. I've been using water and the nipple for the few first passes to flush out the majority of the garbage and clean the communication passage, then switch to a home made cleaner (equal parts peroxide, alcohol, Murphy's) and traditional patches up the bore. Doesn't take too long to clean and I honestly don't mind it. It's therapeutic...

I hit it with a breach face scraper then I put a few cleaner wetted patches bunched up and shoved down the bore to the breech face, and use the patch worm to spin it around a bit and pull it back out. Some of this may be overkill maybe I'm missing something too - still learning. This works so far for me. I then hit it with a healthy dose of CLP inside and out before I put it away - muzzle down. Like I do with my New Englander I check it a day or two later with some patches to make sure no rust is starting. I learned this from my New Englander. The first 3 or 4 times I shot and cleaned it, I checked it a few days later and some red patches would come out of a bore check. It's never happened after these first few firings since though. I run a bunch of patches and fire off a few caps before shooting the next time.

Make sure you pass along your findings. I'm very interested to know what you do with yours. Any one else around here who has one, can you post your experiences?

 

[Musketfire]

Beautiful rifle muskets there gentlemen!

 

[Airwolf]

Well, I have been using a Euroarms Enfield 1858 (2 band) rifled musket for the last 12 years....Using .577 minie balls, with a 70gr FFg, the bullets load fine, for about 5-6 shots...After that I have gotten several bullets jammed in the barrel...The fouling was that great....So I bought a .58 cal mini bullet "sizing" die from Dixie Gun Works (model GA1103)...It will straighten bent "skirts", but it also re-sizes a .577 mini down to .575....Works like a dream....Bullets load much easier and I get more shots in before having to swab the barrel....And accuracy is still fanastic....I use Bore Butter as a lube and RWS musket caps....I have completely given up on CCI musket caps...As far as I`m concerned, they`re junk......

 

[Road King]

Here is some information that maybe of some use. It was printed in England so it must have been part of the original batch.
There is a reason why I never throw anything out.
Hope you enjoy.

 

[Road King]

This maybe getting a little off track but here is an article on the Parker Hale Musketoon