need your opinion (brass)
- Thread starter Goose25
- Start date
The fourth pic is = you trying bullet seating / crimping at the same time without mouth flaring or base of the bullets not as much flat as it should have when holding it up the mouth= use boat tail bullets
I reserve my views on pic #1
@over anealed = may be too soft
@yeah it's damaged and pushing on the shoulder
@ Nice shooting
I reserve my views on pic #1
@over anealed = may be too soft
@yeah it's damaged and pushing on the shoulder
@ Nice shooting
OK, let's break it down...
--The "ring" is the gap between the bottom of the neck sizing and the top of the shoulder on the body die. You are basically squeezing brass down from the neck and then up from the body.
I'm betting that after firing you can no longer feel this "ring", right? (It's still there, it's just migrated to the inside, where it can do some damage, on the outside, it's just cosmetic)
--The "out-of-round" I'm betting you rifle has a spring-powered ejector, like a Remington. What you're seeing is the case mouth hitting the various "steps" on the way out of the action. Load an empty, sized case someplace very quiet and very slowly withdraw the bolt, you'll hear "tic--tic--tic..." and then it'll flip out of the action.
-- What kind of lube are you using on the top of the "cone" where it rubs as it swages the neck down? Even tho it doesn't slide very far, there is a lot of force on that narrow band of steel-on-steel. I like a grease with lots of moly in it, then disassemble and move the grease to the high-friction spots (which will have the grease rubbed off) every 100 (or so) shells. A grease with a good "EP" additive should work just as well. What you're looking for there is a very "stinky" grease, the sulphur-smell is the EP additive, same as in oil for a differential or a manual gearbox.
The EP additive prevents the metal from galling ("cold-welding" is really what happens) and thus jamming the "petals" of the collet die.
Just polish any burrs you can feel away, and the die will be serviceable again, just keep it properly lubed, just like you keep all the other sliding surfaces of your reloading gear properly lubed, right?
--The "ring" is the gap between the bottom of the neck sizing and the top of the shoulder on the body die. You are basically squeezing brass down from the neck and then up from the body.
I'm betting that after firing you can no longer feel this "ring", right? (It's still there, it's just migrated to the inside, where it can do some damage, on the outside, it's just cosmetic)
--The "out-of-round" I'm betting you rifle has a spring-powered ejector, like a Remington. What you're seeing is the case mouth hitting the various "steps" on the way out of the action. Load an empty, sized case someplace very quiet and very slowly withdraw the bolt, you'll hear "tic--tic--tic..." and then it'll flip out of the action.
-- What kind of lube are you using on the top of the "cone" where it rubs as it swages the neck down? Even tho it doesn't slide very far, there is a lot of force on that narrow band of steel-on-steel. I like a grease with lots of moly in it, then disassemble and move the grease to the high-friction spots (which will have the grease rubbed off) every 100 (or so) shells. A grease with a good "EP" additive should work just as well. What you're looking for there is a very "stinky" grease, the sulphur-smell is the EP additive, same as in oil for a differential or a manual gearbox.
The EP additive prevents the metal from galling ("cold-welding" is really what happens) and thus jamming the "petals" of the collet die.
Just polish any burrs you can feel away, and the die will be serviceable again, just keep it properly lubed, just like you keep all the other sliding surfaces of your reloading gear properly lubed, right?
Nosler brass, while good, tends to be a bit on the "soft" side, IMHO. With that in mind, I certainly would not be even thinking about annealing after only 3 firings. Normally, I do not anneal until at least 10 firings, or until I experience a split neck, which indicates the brass has work hardened to the point it needs attention. The damaged die I cannot comment on, [Don't use Lee dies] but is sure to give trouble. The out-of-round case mouths are from when the case is being ejected from the action....quite common, in fact, particularly if the brass is very soft. Regards, Eagleye
I wonder why it is that in nearly every case on these threads where a problem arrises in sizing, seating etc., Lee dies are involved?
My advise would be to firstly quit annealing with such few loadings, as Eagleye has said. Secondly, get rid of that collet die and get a set of good, standard dies of nearly any other make and get on with life.
My advise would be to firstly quit annealing with such few loadings, as Eagleye has said. Secondly, get rid of that collet die and get a set of good, standard dies of nearly any other make and get on with life.
When I worked a gun counter and was "the reloading guy
" I saw more problems with Lee dies followed closely by Hornady. All mine are Redding and some RCBSI think you might want to have a word with whoever chambered your barrel.
Unless I'm missing something that ring should easily "iron-out" when subjected to normal chamber pressures, unless there is some sort of groove there.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
From your first pic, the bulge you are feeling is called the 'donut' and a byproduct of brass flow.
Solutions include out and inside neck turning depending on your feeling on this. I prefer to size in the collet neck die and outside neck turn. That way I don't disrupt the important, inner surface of the neck.
The crushed cases are a combo of soft case and jammed petals. Either the annealing is too vigourous and/or brass alloy on the soft side.
Try firing more between annealings. You need to confirm that peak temp and time in flame when annealing. Colour change does not work.
Don't measure your cases after tumbling. They get bashed around way too much. Only after they come out of the chamber and sizing die. Also, the caliper being used has some inherent error.
Best to use a tubing micrometer to get precise measurements. Flat anvils on a curved surface can lead to some measuring error. But as long as the bullet can be released, its ok.
The Lee collet die works very well and having used them for a decade in a whole bunch of chamberings, they still do what I want a neck sizing die to do.
They use a very different process then standard dies and many problems I have resolved stemmed from reloaders not understanding how to set them up properly.
But all dies have their quirks and issues. I sell alot of bushing dies too and these are without their quirks too.
If you got some dirt in there to cause the galling, then cleaning them will solve the issue. Of course, you can get them warranteed by LEE. Lube, sand off the rough spots on the outside surface and have at it.
Keep an eye on the neck thickness and turn as needed to gain enough clearance.
The 260R case has a shallow shoulder angle and brass will flow if pressure are elevated ( I know that is not the situation with your loads). Big reason I went with a sharp improved shoulder on my Mystic.
I simply don't have the same issues as those shooting the standard 260 or related cases.
Jerry
Solutions include out and inside neck turning depending on your feeling on this. I prefer to size in the collet neck die and outside neck turn. That way I don't disrupt the important, inner surface of the neck.
The crushed cases are a combo of soft case and jammed petals. Either the annealing is too vigourous and/or brass alloy on the soft side.
Try firing more between annealings. You need to confirm that peak temp and time in flame when annealing. Colour change does not work.
Don't measure your cases after tumbling. They get bashed around way too much. Only after they come out of the chamber and sizing die. Also, the caliper being used has some inherent error.
Best to use a tubing micrometer to get precise measurements. Flat anvils on a curved surface can lead to some measuring error. But as long as the bullet can be released, its ok.
The Lee collet die works very well and having used them for a decade in a whole bunch of chamberings, they still do what I want a neck sizing die to do.
They use a very different process then standard dies and many problems I have resolved stemmed from reloaders not understanding how to set them up properly.
But all dies have their quirks and issues. I sell alot of bushing dies too and these are without their quirks too.
If you got some dirt in there to cause the galling, then cleaning them will solve the issue. Of course, you can get them warranteed by LEE. Lube, sand off the rough spots on the outside surface and have at it.
Keep an eye on the neck thickness and turn as needed to gain enough clearance.
The 260R case has a shallow shoulder angle and brass will flow if pressure are elevated ( I know that is not the situation with your loads). Big reason I went with a sharp improved shoulder on my Mystic.
I simply don't have the same issues as those shooting the standard 260 or related cases.
Jerry
Merci Coach!!!
A
can sanding the burs on the petals make them "non"-concentric, creating uneven neck tension? should I also sand the interior of the cone (pic 6)?
If the dies came with those burrs on the collet and collet closer, they were defective from the manufacturer and should be replaced under warranty.
NormB
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Merci Coach!!!
A quick search on the net and I found a great deal to read about the Dreaded Doughnut... its late, and I'll have lots of reading in the days to come.
http://www.6mmbr.com/260AIforming.html
http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=12628
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZBykXq1sSQ
http://6mmbr.websitetoolbox.com/printthread/?id=1098797&perpage=100
So should I put these case's aside until I get to turning them, and continue my load development with fresh (unfired) case's?
what turning tool do you recommend?
can sanding the burs on the petals make them "non"-concentric, creating uneven neck tension? should I also sand the interior of the cone (pic 6)?
Yes, definitely don't use them if there is a donut growing in the neck. Part of the issues you may be having on the target could be inconsistent bullet release. The reason we all hate and dread the donut is that it reduces the clearnace in the chamber to ZERO. That gets too exciting when running elevated pressure ammo.
That is why I do the bullet slip test on fired cases. As long as the bullet goes into the case with little to no motivation, I know I have enough clearance with the chamber (I don't like tight necks in a rifle that can see weather). You can also feel the neck move using the collet die.
As the brass grows and/or hardens, this 'give' goes down to the point where it feels like the necks haven't been sized at all, but have. Annealing and/or another run through the neck turner is required to keep pressure spiked flyers from occuring.
Simple rule - if you have to trim, you will have to outside neck turn. Brass has to come from somewhere and if it is moving/lengthening, it will also thicken your necks.
I use the outside neck turner attachment for my Forster neck trimmer. Of course, there are hand units that do the same thing but I already have the Forster.
You are just removing the high spots on the neck. The thickness really doesn't get reduced much.
We can discuss tooling options through the email.
I would definitely remove any high spots on the outside of the petal/collet. below surface doesn't matter but any bump above will either make the die size wonky, jam up the collet. I wouldn't bother getting rid of any divits though. That would change the die.
Simple check is to tap the base of the die (actually the collet) with your finger while in use. It should move freely up and down and spin. Also watch as the shellholder hits this base. It should move up about 1/8" or so and drop freely when you raise the press lever.
Then you know the collet is free to do its job properly and well sized necks result.
With new brass, I always fireform before load testing. There is a lot of stretch in that first firing which can give you false results. After a couple of full pressure firings, I feel the brass has stabilized and gives me a true reading of my load development.
After a few more firings, annealing might be needed to keep necks consistent. Then trimming, outside neck turing, etc, etc. Brass maintenance is an ongoing thing and necessary to max and prolong accuracy.
As to annealing, if you are not using any temp indicators, a simple way to know if you have gone to far is to pinch the top of the neck with only your finger nails. If the neck distorts BEFORE your nails do, the necks are too soft and have become pretty much useless.
The window to properly anneal brass is very narrow and getting it wrong is more common then many think.
Jerry
