Needed; equipment suggestion for milsurp reloading

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PCB

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Good Afternoon Folks,
My Boys and I are starting a little Milsurp collection and in order to feed them we have decided to start reloading. I think this will be a great hobby for our family.
We will eventually be loading British.303, 8x56r, 8mm, 7x57, and .308. Hopefully more to come in the future.
Before starting I will be picking up several manuals. Seems that the ABC's of Reloading, Lymans, Speer and Nosler are books that are well regarded.
I am interested in hearing about recommendations from those of you that shoot milsurps. I have read that some presses are better suited to pistol rounds and not as practical for rifle rounds. Would these calibers require a heavy duty press? Sounds like a single stage press would be the best for us. Do you find it best to piece together you equipment or are the starter kits the best way to get going? Any preferences?
I know I am opening a can of worms but the many threads I have read seem to be geared toward pistol and sport reloading as opposed to older military stuff. Honest we will be doing lots of reading before we start but if we can get an idea of some of the equipment that we will "for sure" need, then I can start watching for it on the equipment exchange or some of our local retailers.
Thanks
 
There is no real difference between loading for a sport rifle or a milsurp , heck most sporting cartridges either were or are derived from military rounds. For most rifle shooters a single stage press is a good idea and any of the major makes (RCBS, Redding, Hornady etc) make good presses but I would stay away from the aluminum framed numbers and stick with the cast. As for dies the same holds true but for the 303 I would try to get a neck sizing die as well as a full length die to maximize case life. The kits are usually a good idea as they have most of what you need with the Rockchucker kit by RCBS being especially high quality IMHO. In addition to what the kits contain you will need some type of case trimmer ( I like Forster), a decent caliper ( CTire ones are fine) and I like a neck prep setup like the Lyman case neck dipper.
 
if you on a tight budget, and are good with mechanical things lee is a great choice. low cost, high value and decent to good quality on most of their stuff. their classic cast press is on par with rcbs and the like.

their scales, powder measure, chamfer tool aren't that good though.
 
Spawn-Inc said:
if you on a tight budget, and are good with mechanical things lee is a great choice. low cost, high value and decent to good quality on most of their stuff. their classic cast press is on par with rcbs and the like.

their scales, powder measure, chamfer tool aren't that good though.
Click to expand...

My Lee perfect powder mesure works wonderfully well with H-335.
 
Look for a good single stage press like a Hornady, Lyman, RCBS Rockchucker or the Lee classic cast. All of these will last you and your kids a lifetime. A good set of dies in the calibre that you shoot(neck sizing dies if you segregate brass only shot in that rifle) a good scale, some cheap Lee case trimmers, and maybe a hand prime if you do not like priming on the press. With that you should be well on the way. Add components and of course one or two or even three good reloading books. The Lyman 49th edition is a good all around intro into reloading as well as The ABC's of Reloading. Have fun and stay safe.
 
Armored Metal said:
My Lee perfect powder mesure works wonderfully well with H-335.
Click to expand...

The auto disc powder measure works very good for me accept it leaks a little when using fine grain powder like h110.

The stand alone powder measure again works great for most powders but leaks alot with h110, accurate no2 and so on. It doesn't leak as much if you really tighten it up but then it's hard to move.

I have 90%+ Lee equipment but somethings they make should just be left on the shelf.
 
I reload .303 on the Lee single-stage and I make excellent ammunition. Yes, you can spend much more to get a different product, but you don't have to. I too have great success with the 'perfect powder measure' even though the name is a little tongue-in-cheek; nothing is perfect in reloading, don't believe the hype. I am unaware of your affluence, but I would recommend you start with as minimal an investments as possibnle on appropriate equipment, and go from there. I can afford more or "better" equipment than I have, but it's never failed me and I'm not generally one to fix what aint broken.

I have the ABC's and Lymans, both are great manuals and will serve you well.

I make 'em one round at a time, and they all go bang - most of them even hit what I want them to, and those that don't are not the fault of the reloading equipment. Considering that the going rate for factory .303 these days starts at about $1/round, the value proposition on reloading is easy to see.
 
I've been reloading for over 30 years. Most of it for about a dozen military calibers including all the ones you have listed. I'm still using the single stage RCBS press I bought in 1979. It certainly isn't the fastest way to produce good reloads but should be the most foolproof.
You are on the right track by buying some good reference manuals first.
I only shoot cast bullets out of all my rifles except a Garand and a Norinco M14. In my opinion cast is the way to go. Cast is easier on the gun, the shoulder and the wallet. Cases last nearly forever. Accuracy can be as good (and sometimes better) than jacketed. Bore sizes in some milsurp rifles can vary considerably and there is some flexibility with cast. Good example you mention is 8x56R which apparently can vary from 229 to 334 or more. (mine is 229 which from what I've read is unusal) Commercial jacketed bullets are only available in .330 and are expensive ($45.00/100).
If you want some additional info send me a PM. I might be able to help.

Old Ranger
 
As mentioned, the equipment is the same. Look into one of the beginner's kits. Gives you everything you need less the dies and shell holder. Partial to RCBS or Redding myself, but it's just a preference. Nobody beats RBCS' warrantee. Covers the kit, not who bought it. Including used kit. Any issues are fixed with a phone call or e-mail.
The 8 x 56R is likely going to give you a headache finding dies and a shell holder. It's most likely a special order from RCBS and may or may not be available from other makers. One place to find out about that sort of thing is Midway USA. You can't order from them(they got caught exporting stuff they weren't allowed to), but you can find out what is available. On the other hand, reloading equipment has no restrictions for export by the U.S. government. You just need to find a Stateside exporter.
The .303 has a few peculiarities all its own. The barrels are not all the same inside diameter, so you have to slug the barrel and use the closest diameter bullet. Those are .311" or .312" depending on the manufacturer.
The ABC's of Reloading is a basic how-to with some load data. Buy the Lyman Manual. It has more loads using more powders and bullet weights than any bullet or powder makers book. The Reference chapters are a good read, but read 'em both.
 
Most of my reloading equipment is RCBS. Most moulds are Lyman/Ideal but I've had good sucess with Lee dies in the "less than common" milsurp calibers. This incudes 7.5x54 (MAS), 7.5x55 swiss, 7.7x58 Jap, 8x56R and 6.5x52 Carcano. These dies are inexpensive and include a shell holder and load data with each set. I've reloaded hundreds of rounds with mine without any problems. Don't expect to find them on every gunshop shelf but I'm sure some of the site sponsors would be glad to order for you.
 
Hi there PCB,

Welcome to the wonderful hobby of reloading. You'll find that for the calibers you specified, you'll be saving boat loads of money be reloading.

I would strongly recommend going with either Lee or RCBS presses to start- both have great stuff for beginners (I still use my RCBS Partner Kit). Since I started reloading, I've developed a preference for Lee everything- dies, trimming tools, etc.

Some good places to start are looking at Budget Shooter Supply and Higginson Powders. Higginson has A LOT of Lee equipment in stock as well as materials. I get most of my stuff there (and they're only an hour away from my house in Ottawa).

Depending on what components you end up preferring, I would recommend owning at least two manuals. I own the Hornady and Speer manuals, and use the Hodgdon Reloading Data Center online as well. The Hornady manual has very mild loads, so sticking to them will probably reduce the chance of a kaboom until you're confident in your ability to load. However, Hornady leaves out many powders that would otherwise work well in the calibers you're reloading, and I find the Speer manual and the online reloading center offer a better overview of powders, even if they are not ideal. There is something of a component shortage right now (it is getting better) so having a broad variety of data is useful.

The powders you should be looking out for are IMR 4895, H4895, IMR 4350, H 4350, and VIHT N-160. The 4895s produce absolutely outstanding results in .308 and are general versatility and accuracy powders. The others are medium-slow burning powders that work great in many milsurps- I use them in 7.62x54R and 6.5x55 Swedish. VIHT N-160 is worth more than gold, though, so use it sparingly!

Feel free to PM me if you have any more questions as I love this hobby!
 
I'm still using the Rockchucker press I bought in 1973 and it is still going strong, and my recommendation is to buy a solid well made press and keep things simple. I would recommend a good mechanical powder scale, hand priming tools, etc. You do not need a powder measure when staring out and you should weigh each powder charge. As your skill increases you can work on getting equipment to speed up the reloading process "IF" needed.

The one thing I would strongly suggest buying is the Hornady cartridge cases headspace gauge. It will help you to adjust your resizing dies for minimum shoulder bump and keep you from over resizing your cases. The Hornady gauge is much cheaper than buying a separate case gauge for every caliber you have and is more precise.

Wilson case "gauges" in the rear of the photo and the Hornady gauge in the front, with the Hornady unit one gauge fits all and it is easy to use.

gauge002_zpsc597686b.jpg


With the .303 British the military chamber is "LONGER" than its civilian SAAMI counterpart. In the photo below is a fired .303 case resting in a Wilson case gauge. The amount the case is sticking above the gauge is how much longer the military chamber is than SAAMI standards. If you set up you dies as per the die instructions this is how much too far you will push the shoulder of the case back and over resize the case.

100_1637.jpg


The best thing you can do when starting out is sit down and read the front part of your reloading manuals and digest what you have read.
 
Buy once, cry once! Within reason, (but if you and your sons are buying multiple rifles, reason would suggest sufficient affluence to pay more than absolute minimum), in tools, you get what you pay for. More money, equals better tools, longer lasting, better warranties, better customer service. Buying cheap, with the plan to upgrade as things break or wear out is a formula for frustration. A broken pin a couple days before a planned shoot or hunt, that precludes finishing a loading project, costs way more than its simple replacement value - having to run around to gun stores, looking for ammo, re-sighting a rifle to shoot factory instead of your pet handload, yadda, yadda yadda.

Good, sturdy single stage big name presses will last for ever, properly aligned, reliable, and not apt to let you down. Nothing wrong with Lee tools. I have lots of them. But my press is a RockChucker, and it replaces a Jr. that I sold to get a friend started. My Dillon 550 gets dragged out and set up if I want bags of .38 or .45, after I have messed around to find a pet load on the RCBS, but mostly Dillon sleeps in its box, and the 'Chucker grinds out my annual ration, a few hours at a time.
 
The equipment will last halfway to forever if you take half-decent care of it. I am still using the Aluminum CH press I started with and the RCBS 8x57 dies I started with. The press is BLACK and the dies are UNDATED, so that tells you how old they are: almost 50 years. I also have an RCBS JR model and am looking to pick up a Rockchucker or equivalent because these Sniders and Martinis are demanding to go play.

RCBS will make any die set you can imagine. They are very good and they can be exepnsive. Their 55000 series list of Custom Dies is awe-inspiring.

I have never had the $$$ to go first-class all the way, so have had to learn a lot. Right now I am making up a single box of ammo for a gift. It will be 6.5x53R Dutch Mannlicher..... and I am using .303 brass and a set of Lee dies for the 6.5 Arisaka. When done, the stuff will work; the recipient then can neck-size the brass and re-use it.

For RIMMED cartridges (.303, 6.5 Arisaka, 6.5 Dutch and Rumanian, 7.62x54R, 8x50 Mannlicher, 8x56R and a few others) a package of pony-tail ties is a useful investment. You fire-form your brass with a pony-tail tie around the base, just ahead of the rim, to hold the cartridge back against the bolt-face. Reduces your lost brass a huge amount.

Neck-sizing is a snap with the new Lee Collet Die. Neck-size whenever possible for maximum brass life. Anneal case-mouths about every 8 to 10 times they are fired.

You can get a lot of bang for the buck with cast bullets, even more with reduced loads. "The Load" from C.E. Harris is great: gives you low-recoil home-rolled ammo for less than 2 for a quarter. FINE for bolt rifles, will not cycle a Garand, so don't even try it. Low-intensity; fellow I know is getting .9MOA with a Ross with this load. The Load is for any fullbore military rifle: 13 grains of Red Dot with a 180-grain CAST bullet.

Fellow I shot with for many, many years loaded the most accurate ammo I have ever used. He did not even own a powder measure: Gavin Tait used a cat-food tin, a silver spoon and a little piece of folded paper..... and an RCBS 505 scale.

Get the best scale you can afford. BEST is not necessarily costliest; there are other factors. The 505 is quicker to use than the 1010.... and half the $$. That little Lee scale is incredible but very slow to work with. For absolute precision it is hard to beat but you must have patience by the bucket. I tried one out, weighed a sheet of paper, wrote a note on the paper with a pencil, weighed it again and subtracted. I had weighed the WRITING. Try one, but I think you will use the 505 or the Redding equivalent a lot quicker.

Ordinary FL dies can be used for neck-sizing, too. You put the fired case into the press and raise it, then screw the die down on top. When the die stops screwing down, lock it in place. You are now neck-sizing.

When buying a manual, be aware WHOSE manual you are getting. Hornady, Speer, Sierra all make bullets..... and their manuals reflect this, no end. Alliant, IMR, Hodgdon, Winchester make powders...... and their manuals reflect this. LEE and LYMAN make reloading tools. You really need at least one of each. I find I am getting great use from a 1961 Lyman/Ideal manual, but I load a lot of VERY obsolete types. Latest edition of Cartridges of the World is a most valuable addition to your library.

Nothing else, except that my fingers are sore and I REALLY need a Coffee!

Hope this helps!
 
Gentlemen, thanks for being so generous with your replies and information. I'm sorry i haven't replied till now, I've been at work and this site is blocked.
Some of you have offered to help though PM's and I will take you up on that. RCBS is the press that I seem to keep hearing the most about so i am leaning in that direction. As YKKID has mentioned we have added to our arsenal 4 rifles in the past couple of weeks. One was purchased by my son, one was a promised birthday present and the full stock .303 and Brazilian Mauser I got for $550, couldn't refuse. Before I purchase reloading equip. I have to let the heat cool off a little in our home if you know what I mean. This should give me ample time to read and research and watch for any deals that might be out there. I'm not poor but we are a single income family and I need to be careful so I like SMLELLI's philosophy of buying the individual tools that will actually be used. Having said that I don't like buying junk and would rather get equipment that I will want to work with for years to come, especially since I am within 2 or 3 years of retirement.
The purchase of these rifles with their different actions and bolt types, and reading your replies has taught me how little I know about the science of loading and firearms in general. Is there a book or reference guide that you folks can suggest that explains the operation and parts of firearms. How they work, how to clean and maintain them. more than just running a brush down the bore. Perhaps some rudimentary gunsmithing. I want to clean up these rifles yet I feel helpless and worried that I will end up desecrating them. If anybody here lives in S.W. Ontario, Windsor area I'd love to sit down over coffee and pull on your ear a bit, or I have nation wide calling in the evenings. I'd love to chat, i'm old enough that I hate typing.
Sure appreciate the help.
Paul
 
How does this sound for our initial purchase.
The Rockchucker Supreme Master Kit, which contains the following;
Rock Chucker Supreme Single Stage press
505 scale
Uniflow Powder Measure
Speer Reloading Manual
Hand priming tool with small and large primer plugs
Folding Hex Key Set with 0.050", 1/16", 5/64", 3/32", 7/64", 1/8", 9/64" and 5/32" keys
Universal Case Loading Block, which holds 40 cases in most rifle and pistol calibers
Case Lube Kit, which includes a 2 oz bottle of Case Lube-2, a case lube pad, 2 case neck brushes for .22 through .30 calibers and an accessory handle
Powder Funnel for .22 to .45 caliber, including the Winchester Short Magnum calibers
Chamfer and deburring tool for .17 through .60 caliber
A stand for the powder dispenser
Redding Powder trickler
extra case loading block
Shell holders #3, #7, #13 for Br .303, 8x56r, 8mm Mauser, 7x57, and .308
Dies for the above calibres
caliper
Should I look for a trimmer now or wait till the casings have been reloaded a couple of times?
Any other sizing tools that I should pick up now as opposed to later? Just trying to spread out the hit a little.
Thanks.
 
That's an excellent list of very good tools, I would strongly recommend investing in trimming tools now. Brass lengths can vary quite a bit, too long will cause issues that can be dangerous. When roll crimping (if you end up going that route) brass length needs to be fairly consistent. Short brass will have a weak crimp, long brass can bulge and fail to chamber. This also means inconsistent neck tension which degrades accuracy. Lastly if brass is way too long it can jam in the throat and pinch the bullet which raises pressure. I doubt you will see that with the large throat of a battle rifle but a concern nonetheless. I love the Lee case trimmers. They're cheap and very consistent. Variances of less than 0.001" for about $7. Chuck the lock stud in a hand drill and you can trim, chamfer and buff with steel wool in just a few seconds. Steel wool is great for cleaning brass if you don't have a tumbler. Its slower but for $2 or $3 you can clean a metric s**t ton of brass. My final recommendation is to read that manual thoroughly before getting on the tools. Don't just wing it, that's how you lose a finger! Make sure your boys read it so everyone's on the same page then dig in, have some fun and hit the range!
 
PCB, it's very good to see that you are taking the time to figure out what you do and don't need.

The info provided above is solid information. In 1 year I went from never loading a round in my life to doing cartridge conversions, casting my own bullets and loading obsolete cartridges. I learnt with lots of help from people here on this forum and I bought several reloading books and read them.

Just for the record, I use a lee classic cast turret press, I load around 250 rifle rounds a month and it's worked flawlessly. I'm loading for 6.5x55, 6.5x52 carcano, 7.62x54r, 8x57 and .303 British.
 
PCB:

One thing (or two) that I suggest you add to you shopping list - another publisher's/manufacturer's reloading manual.

While they mostly cover the same information, every once in a while you will find a tidbit in one that gets no mention in another. Sometime you also get a different selection of powder possibilities for a given cartridge.

I have the Hornady (3rd and 8th), Lee, Sierra and Lyman (49th edition). I've heard the "The ABCs of Reloading" is godd as well, but I don't have a copy.

Plus you can sometimes get ideas for a cartridge, that for one reason or another, is interesting, and gets added to your shopping list for guns... and reloading stuff....

Stan
 
Being on a real everyday mans budget, grabbing whatever I can. I load for over twelve different calibers for my milsurps and hunting rifles with Lee dies and have great success without spending the higher dollar on the more adjustable dies. If you are reloading to just hammer paper and / or get the most out of your old military rifle, LEE dies will do you fine !
 
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