NeoStead 2000 Restoration Project

M

Meph

Regular
Rating - 100%
40   0   0
So a few months ago, I came into the possession of a couple of these interesting shotguns. I found them to be really fascinating, cool, and a real blast to shoot. The downside here is that the plastic is, for lack of a better term, recycled sewer pipe junk. The fore-end specifically is the most susceptible to spontaneously crumbling to bits as it houses important mechanical pieces. The buttstock is thick enough to survive, and the other bits of plastic aren't under much stress, so thankfully they're usually okay.

Below is one of my best examples of this shotgun; the others sadly did not fare too well.



Those fore-ends however... What a shame.

But I don't want to give up, and I have taken it upon myself to make neosteads whole again. This is not a cheap procedure; these fore-ends are quite complex, having both smooth flowing shapes on the outside, and fine detail on the inside that's crucial to the functioning of the gun. Despite this, I'm making good progress in replicating these.

This brings me to a bit of a disheartening fact. I would like to be able to 3D print these, but I'm afraid even the toughest printer plastics are simply not up to the task. I believe that they'll have to be machined out of aluminum to function properly and last a long time. However I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter, perhaps there are new printer plastics that could be up to the task. If you have a NeoStead 2000, I would like to hear your opinion on all of this.
 
Congratulations. You own an incredibly rare set of shotguns, something around 200 of them were ever made.

As for 3DP the forend... You might be surprised. There's a lot of variety in materials now, and the strength keeps getting better. If you have access to a professional 3DP outfit, there's a lot you can do, and even with weaker plastics, the results will be better. The strength of the final product can vary a lot depending on things like cooling rate, whether the plastic was melted at too high or too low a temperature (there's an optimal temperature for any given plastic), etc. etc. It's really hard for a desktop enthusiast to get right, but there are professional outfits that "do this for a living" and have made all the mistakes in advance.

Some quick googling found a number of different articles about the relative strength of different filaments. You might be surprised at what some of these can do. Also, if you re-enforce key pressure points with metal, you should be able to pull this off.

https://airwolf3d.com/2017/07/24/strongest-3d-printer-filament/

Ian did a video on these quite recently, there might be some useful info in it for figuring out how all the parts work together:

 
grelmar said:
Congratulations. You own an incredibly rare set of shotguns, something around 200 of them were ever made.
Click to expand...

In that respect I'd like to know what serial numbers their production ran from. If they started at #1, then my specimens should be some of the very last ever made if there are only around 200 of them in total.

grelmar said:
As for 3DP the forend... You might be surprised. There's a lot of variety in materials now, and the strength keeps getting better. If you have access to a professional 3DP outfit, there's a lot you can do, and even with weaker plastics, the results will be better.
Click to expand...
I've looked into a local print shop, and was quoted over 400 dollars for one foregrip made from carbon fiber fill plastic. I'm thinking of having a handguard printed of cheap plastic just to test stuff, more as a prop than anything.

grelmar said:
The strength of the final product can vary a lot depending on things like cooling rate, whether the plastic was melted at too high or too low a temperature (there's an optimal temperature for any given plastic), etc. etc. It's really hard for a desktop enthusiast to get right, but there are professional outfits that "do this for a living" and have made all the mistakes in advance.
Click to expand...
I don't plan on buying a 3D printer to print them myself or have molds made to have proper handguards injection molded as the second option would be ridiculously expensive for the limited numbers of foregrips. However I can have them machined, I still think this might be the way to go despite the higher cost. Concerning the original plastic, I have identified it as being ABS plastic with no fiber fill or anything, really bottom of the barrel stuff. Looking at the lines caused by the molding process, and the warp caused by age, I personally think that the original foregrips were done hastily, probably with molds too cold, but I don't know much about plastics so grains of salt required here. These things can basically crack just from being left alone on a table. My test firings were done after mending those original foregrips using ABS cement. New cracks formed elsewhere after shooting the gun a few times, it was pretty depressing. I won't be shooting them until I get a better solution because I don't want to damage the foregrips further. I can however report that everything else about the NeoStead is awesome, I have a lot of respect and admiration for Mr. Neophytou and Truvelo armory despite the flawed plastic.

grelmar said:
Some quick googling found a number of different articles about the relative strength of different filaments. You might be surprised at what some of these can do. Also, if you re-enforce key pressure points with metal, you should be able to pull this off.
Click to expand...
One of the problems with printing in general is the fine detail required on the inside of the foregrips. There are some precise cavities holding the pump mechanism, shapes that don't tend well to usual printing. Perhaps SLA printing could do this, but it would still need some areas reinforced with metal (for example the threaded portions) to really work.

Concerning the video, I've seen it and the interview with Mr. Neophytou, they're both amazing videos. I can also say that I was quite familiar with the mechanism of the NS2000 before the video as I owned the guns well before the video was out. The foregrip houses the action release lever, the lever unit also contains an inertia-actuated block that releases the action when the gun is fired so the lever doesn't require pressing after the first shot. Both that system and the locking mechanism rely on the foregrip to work properly, so I expect some headaches to arise from fit and finish if printed foregrips are made. It's also why I might have a foregrip printed just for show and have the rest machined as it's much easier to ensure a proper fit with good aluminum machined in a CNC.

If anyone knows a decent printing service I would be okay with dealing with them at a distance if they're not local.
 
If you can CNC machine out of Aluminum you can machine out of high quality plastic just as well - easier actually. 2 step process - get a 3d printed part without the minor detail (external shape) then CNC machine the internal cutouts.
 
KotKotofeich said:
If you can CNC machine out of Aluminum you can machine out of high quality plastic just as well - easier actually. 2 step process - get a 3d printed part without the minor detail (external shape) then CNC machine the internal cutouts.
Click to expand...

Not a bad idea actually, however I do see a slight complication. Once the part is 3DPed, it would be hard to hold it for machining. The outside is all smooth rounded shapes, so some sort of clamping would have to be made. It might very well be cheaper to 3DP the parts, have a fixture or soft jaw machined for clamping, but then I'm still left with a plastic that's pretty weak. I'm not sure how long it would last...

I have also been exchanging emails with someone who could do the machining. He had a quick look at the thing and thinks it could be done in 2 operations, and clamped using two standard toe clamps on the mill. He said "first side I'll leave tabs and poke a hole to locate when I flip it over, done that sort of thing before, should be good.". He sent me this as a preview, I guess to tease me so I'd give in. Current temporary hang up is funds, I've already checked the couch for loose change...



He said these were just a quick look at how much mill time I'd be looking at, he said this was just a semi-finish ballnose toolpath but it gives him a better idea of the total time/cost. More importantly he wants to know how many sets I'd want as it'll obviously change the price per set. I might be waiting a little bit in case some other Neostead owners come out of the woodwork to comment on this.

Before I jump into the deep end, I still think I want a set 3DPed out to see if the computer model the CNC machine would be using is accurate. From what I heard, SLA printers are very accurate, so I'd be able to tell if something is horribly wrong. With a cheap printed part I can also test durability, if it's cheap enough I can shoot with it a bunch and see if it falls apart. Maybe I'm overestimating how tough these need to be, experimentation might be the way to go here.

Thanks for your input, you've helped me reconsider my methodology. I'll contact the local print shop and see what they have available for type of 3D printer they have and if they could use a cheaper plastic or something.
 
b-wingpilot said:
Very cool project! A low-cost option for checking fit and function may be to use a 3D printer in your local “maker space”.
Click to expand...

I completely forgot about Maker Spaces! I think I'm in luck, there's one close to where I work. I hope their printer is large enough, the foregrips aren't exactly short.

Thanks a lot for the suggestion though, it's definitely worth checking out.
 
There's plastic and there's plastic. Yes, the generic ABS is pretty fragile (very annoying for what I'm trying to do with it) and to think (and I'm dating myself here) when I was playing Fallout in my youth, they had the Neostead featured - ha! Looks like there's no way it would survive in a scenario like that and for that many years :)

But there are really nice sturdy plastics available. Alex at GSDesigns (site sponsor) uses a relatively soft and flexible but sturdy plastic for stock adapters and it holds up well where ABS breaks after a while.

In suggesting plastic I was thinking more of weight distribution, but I've never even seen a Neostead with my own eyes, much less handled one so it might not be that much big of deal :)

Also, once you've tried your fit and function with plastic, look into what the places that 3d print out of metal can do for you - sometimes their prices are comparable to CNC (or it could be that machinists in my area are unreasonable...)

Looking forward to seeing what turns out whichever way you go :)
 
I have a NeoStead sitting in the back corner of my safe with a broken right-hand foregrip. If you find someone who can make a suitable replacement, I’d certainly be interested in going in on it with you. Please PM me if you figure something out.
 
KotKotofeich said:
In suggesting plastic I was thinking more of weight distribution, but I've never even seen a Neostead with my own eyes, much less handled one so it might not be that much big of deal :)

Also, once you've tried your fit and function with plastic, look into what the places that 3d print out of metal can do for you - sometimes their prices are comparable to CNC (or it could be that machinists in my area are unreasonable...
Click to expand...

As the NeoStead is a bullpup, even loaded, it isn't too front heavy. Of course, aluminum would increase the weight a few ounces, but I think it wouldn't be too bad. I should be able to get an approximate weight from the CAD model so we can compare it against the original plastic ones and the 3DP ones.

promac said:
I have a NeoStead sitting in the back corner of my safe with a broken right-hand foregrip. If you find someone who can make a suitable replacement, I’d certainly be interested in going in on it with you. Please PM me if you figure something out.
Click to expand...

It's sad to hear the plastic issue is so prevalent. I always hope that some of these guns are okay, but I've yet to see one that was pristine except for the prototype Ian shot in the forgotten weapon video.

Okay, I'll add you in my contacts.
 
Last edited:
Meph said:
As the NeoStead is a bullpup, even loaded, it isn't too front heavy. Of course, aluminum would increase the weight a few ounces, but I think it wouldn't be too bad. I should be able to get an approximate weight from the CAD model so we can compare it against the original plastic ones and the 3DP ones.



It's sad to hear the plastic issue is so prevalent. I always hope that some of these guns are okay, but I've yet to see one that was pristine except for the prototype Ian shot in the forgotten weapon video.

Okay, I'll add you in my contacts.
Click to expand...

I've dropped you a PM with an email as well - I may be able to help you out with some things!
 
So I checked out the local Maker Space, it's pretty cool. Sadly their 3D printers were too small, but I still signed on for other stuff.
 
Here's a quick update on the project.

I did get a local print shop to get me a quick and dirty print from cheap plastic to test fit and function, so far so good. The print itself was okay I guess, there was a minor warp in the plastic but it didn't impede function after a bit of sanding. I've run some snap caps through, and the handguards work just like the real ones. Here are some pictures of the printed one next to the original.





It does look decent enough, I tried flat black paint and it ended up being too flat, semi-gloss paint seen in the pictures is close to the look of the original. The original plastic is a little more gray, and the texture is different, but it's quite close and the shape of the printed one is pretty much bang on. I do have another set to be printed out of better plastic as I'm willing to give "better" 3D printing a try as it could be a little while before I can have them machined. Even if no plastic could equal good machined aluminum, printing is relatively cheap and it could be just strong enough to last for a while, so I might be able to go shooting with these guns soon and that alone makes my day.
 
Awesome gun! Wish I had bought the one DelSelins had for sale about 10 years ago. Never seen another for sale since.
Hope your project goes well, OP.
 
Unsurprisingly, the cheap 3D printed set didn't exactly last long.

I fired 25 shells of Remington 00 buck, then a Federal 1oz slugs. At the third slug, the handguard pulled clean off the gun, split right half in two.



The shotgun and the functional components were not damaged, and for the box of shells I did have a good time. We'll see if the good handguard last longer when they get here.
 
The process of replicating the original foregrip for the NeoStead 2000 was a long and expensive one. For the curious, I'll summarize the complete process and then I'll list the cost of each part of the process.

- I had to acquire enough of an example to work with, then I had to digitize the shape of the part by having it precision 3D scanned and 3D modeled
- I then tested this digital rendition by 3D printing the digital model (this step was also useful in many ways, first, it demonstrated how long a standard 3D printed part would last in live fire testing for this application, second, it allowed for the CNC machining programming to be tested for geometry errors)
- There was a 3D print test and live fire test (it was clear that the geometry was correct and that 3D printed parts would not be strong enough, this information allowed me to go forward in a more confident matter with the project of having aluminum replacements made)
- A shop had to be found that would accept working on firearm parts
- The CNC programming had to be refined for efficiency
- Material had to be purchased
- Tooling had to be purchased
- Workholding had to be designed and created
- The material and cutting tools required to make the workholding solutions also had to be purchased
- The program had to be "proven" to make a functional part without crashing
- The first set of aluminum parts were made
- The first set then had to be tested
- There were a few tweaks to various minutia in the process and in the parts to ensure best fit, function, and manufacturing
- The rest of the material was run through the machining operations
- There was some hand finishing to perform (minor removal of "tabs" and burrs left over from the machining processes)
- The parts were then run through a rotary tumbler to dull any sharp edges
- The parts were all sandblasted
- They were sent to anodizing for the usual mil-spec wear resistant surface finish




To be very brief, this is why we don't see many cheap and faithful replicas of old firearms or firearm parts. Doing this process outside of the US, where guns are the boogeyman, and where the economy of scale for any sort of manufacturing is minuscule in comparison, only further compounds these issues. Note that the points about economy of scale and political reasons aren't limited to replicating old designs, they apply to making really anything in Canada, but let's not get sidetracked here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom