new 577-450 Jamison brass now what?

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millwright

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Howdy all.Just received my new brass for my MH mark 3 from Bullseye reloading supplies and was wondering what the next step was?Do I have to anneal this brand new brass or is it good to go.As I'm totally new to the black powder cartridge side of life I though I would ask the collective.Thanks
 
Before you go any farther, slug your bore, even before you buy dies, as you may need an expander to match an over or under sized bore. You need to open the case mouth enough to accept the bullet and create enough case mouth tension.From here you bell case mouths, but only enough to accept the bullet without shaving it, over belling will shorten case life, as cracks will occur at the mouth due to repeated over belling.
 
I would anneal it before my first reloading but then I'm suffering from OCD.....Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. I also would check to see that all of the brass would chamber in my rifle. If it would not then I would resize. Now comes the reloading.....will your bullet seat in the neck? If it's a cast bullet, which I believe it would be, then you may have to flare the case mouth so that lead won't be shaved off upon seating. Now, that done....powder (BP I hope) should come up to the base of the bullet. Crimping is not necessary as long as there is some tension on the bullet when seated. If you are going to use a reduced charge then a filler should be used. I quit using fillers as I found they were too much trouble. So, I use FG Goex to take up more space. Do not use any triple F black or black substitutes as they are too powerful Where are you anyway? If you were close you should come to get a hands on lesson. Good luck with your Martini. Dave
 
Personally I would stick with black powder loads, over the years I have read quite a few stories of fine old black powder cartridge guns being destroyed by "safe" smokeless power equivalent loads. I have a Martini Henry on the way and it will only see black powder loads as it was originally designed and proofed for, to me that is part of shooting these rifles that makes them interesting.
 
well I've been searching and searching for load data using smokeless powder and have not really found a lot but some interesting reading

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_12_51/ai_n15736809/pg_3


and then I found this

I have an old Handloader Magazine article (Nov-Dec 1978) by Jim Jukes on
just this subject,
and it gives the following data:

.577-.450 Load Data

Powder Charge(grains), Bullet Weight (grains) Velocity(fps) Remarks
Gibbs Long Rifle:
IMR-4759 27 Lee 400 1,172
Mild load
Blue Dot 27 Lee 400 1,422
Blue Dot good with lighter bullets
Unique 16 Lee 400 1,124
Light recoil
Green Dot 16 Lee 400 1,094
Nice-shooting
Red Dot 16 Lee 400 1,136
Nice-shooting
Herco 20 Lee 400
1,272 Efficient load
Nobel 100 51 Lee 400 1,390
Some powder left in bore but ignition OK
IMR-3031 45 Lee 400 1,424
Powder left in bore - wadding essential
Blue Dot 19 (Loverin)457121 475 1,075
Nice load. Accurate
Blue Dot 22 457121 475 1,220
Very uniform, with wadding
Blue Dot 25 457121 475 1,374
Powerful, but OK pressure and very uniform velocity
IMR-4759 23 457121 475 990
Very accurate, mild
IMR-4759 25 457121 475 1,109
Very accurate, mild
2400 20 457121 475 1,132
Wadding a great help
IMR-4756 20 457121 475 1,082
Very accurate load
IMR-7625 18 457121 475 1,069
2-inch 100-yd group from benchrest
Herco 20 457121 475 1,213
Good Ignition
Unique 6 457121 475 1,197
Duplex load. Clean-burning
FFg Black 52

IMR-4759 8.5 457121 475 1,102
Duplex load. Clean-burning
FFg Black 50

Nobel 100 51 457121 475 1,378
Only 23 fps velocity spread
Nobel 101 45 457121 475 1,342
Only 28 fps velocity spread
IMR-3031 45 (Lyman)457125 500 1,582
Plenty recoil. Some powder kernels in bore
IMR-4064 50 457125 500 1,529
Unreliable ingition. Wide velocity spreads. Low reading was 1,270 fps.
Reloder 7 37 457125 500 1,416
Unreliable Ignition
IMR-4759 27 457125 500 1,170
Good-shooting load
Nobel 101 50 457125 500 1,540
Plenty recoil but extraction OK
Army & Navy Carbine:
Blue Dot 22 457121 475 1,145
Good load
IMR-4227 30 457121 475 1,144
Wadding a must
1877 Enfield Carbine:
Blue Dot 22 457121 475 1,160
Wadding a must
IMR-4759 8.5 457121 475 1,042
Duplex load. Clean-burning
FFg Black 50
Click to expand...


So I now have 5 rounds loaded up using wadding and a fairly light load of slower powder (less then a 30-30 would use)

I'll let you know how it all works out
 
Ok IMR4895, 35 grn, with a 350grn jacketed projectile produces a fairly mild round, however very poor ignition, only 1 of 5 actually fired, the other 4 were primer only squibs. Just enough to push the bullet into the bore :mad:

So next try same load with magnum primers and only 1/2 sheet of cheap 1 ply toilet paper for wadding.
 
Don't be surprised if your .458" jacketed bullets don't shoot very well as these rifles were designed to shoot larger diameter soft lead (12:1) bullets that would squat down under the force of the igniting propellant and fill the rifling. Here is a quote from the link you provided. I also have an original Trapdoor Springfield and it has oversized bore dimensions as well when compared to modern 45 cal rifles.

Since many new 577/.450 Martini-Henry owners might like to shoot their new possessions, I have a few recommendations. I know of no commercial source for loaded ammunition loaded correctly for the bore and groove diameters of the Martini-Henry. Typically, the loaded bullets are grossly undersize. The Mark I-III rifles and carbines have a barrel groove diameter of .465" to .467" and require a bullet diameter of .465" to .467".
Click to expand...
 
Yes I noticed that when slugging the bore, but this rifle bore is not bad.

I have the jacketed bullets to start with but plan on getting some softer lead for the next stage.


I also shoot .358 out of my enfield 38S&W that slugs out at .361
 
Ok magnum primers worked much better, of the 8 I loaded 7 fired and only 1 primer only squib.

I loaded up a range of weights from 35grn - 37grn all with a wad of toilet paper to fill up the case.

35grn was mild, more of a pop then a Bang. The 37grn load si starting to sound like more of a Bang. Now I know that this "soulds like" method is not a very good indicator.

So far the preasuer is low enough that the cases are not even being fire formed. Perhaps I need a little faster powder.

I also recovered one of my bullets, interesting I must say. You can see that the .458" jacketed bulet does not quite fill the bore but ist close.

Next will be some heavier lead bullets. .468" would be nice.

I also noticed when slugging the bore that there seems to be a bit of a taper the first 3" of bore at the throat where the bore is a little bigger to swage down the soft lead slugs.
 
Yup, .470 seems to be about right, I make a .475" and am working on a .470" sizer, but don't hold your breath, it takes a long time and still keep perfectly concentric......Ben
 
I know that a lot of people go with a hollow base bullet for the oversized bores a lot of Martinis have. Never tried them myself but a few of the high end mold makers make them.

Hollow base Mini bullets work well in a lot of fast twist muzzle loaders but I haven't a clue how they react to smokeless.
 
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