NEW ANTIQUE FRT CHANGES and Addendum to altered cartridges handguns
- Thread starter dingus
- Start date
Now is not the time for this.
Your energy is better spent writing letters and contacting your MP, PSM, PM (click here for the antique letter campaign).
To my knowledge there is no addendum to the law. There are however changes to the FRT database.
For any text of any addendum I think we're going to have to file several FOI requests to see their internal policy. It's not a addendum to the law, but internal SFSS policy.
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No thats not true there is a Addendum or policy change why do you think i started this thred .
I have a copy of it but i promised not to post it in a public and im not going to its not finished anyway then i can post a full copy of it.
Im not gona break my word to someone and never get any info ever again, think about that before you all start asking me with PMs and emails.
Its pretty simple.
I see lots of things they have done wrong but the Addendum is not yet finished thats what i was told.
dont post what you see as mistakes thats another reason i didnt want to post it yet some of you guys will point out every mistake and post it in the open forum no offence but most of you are not lawyers neither am i.
once its finished then a lawyer for gun owners needs to see it in its entire type. not bits and pieces as you should know one word in the wrong place..... well you know what i meen.
Read this below it will make things more clear maby its the main points that will effect us.
Its not a copy and paste i just typed it out so others can attempt to figger it out.
I think i covered all this in my first couple posts of this thred as have others that called CFC
1 if the firearm was manufactured only in one of the named calibers of the regulation.
then the firearm canot be granted antique status
example smith &wesson no 3 double action frontier frt 22129
2 if the firearm was manufactured only in a none -named caliber of the regulation.
then the firearm can be granted antique status
example webley MKII frt 23368
3 if the firearm was manufactured in both named and none named calibers of the regulation.
then additional confirmation of the original chambering of the firearm is required.
i . if it was manufactured in a named caliber then the firearm cannot be granted antique status
ii. if it was manufactured in a non - named caliber, then the firearm can be granted antique status.
iii if the orignal caliber configeration information is unavailable, then the firearm can be granted antique status.
example colt 1873 frt 17644
it is understood that any other caliber marking found on a firearm whether a firearm has been rechambered to accept another caliber diffrent from the origin or not that more data or information is required.
I have a copy of it but i promised not to post it in a public and im not going to its not finished anyway then i can post a full copy of it.
Im not gona break my word to someone and never get any info ever again, think about that before you all start asking me with PMs and emails.
Its pretty simple.
I see lots of things they have done wrong but the Addendum is not yet finished thats what i was told.
dont post what you see as mistakes thats another reason i didnt want to post it yet some of you guys will point out every mistake and post it in the open forum no offence but most of you are not lawyers neither am i.
once its finished then a lawyer for gun owners needs to see it in its entire type. not bits and pieces as you should know one word in the wrong place..... well you know what i meen.
Read this below it will make things more clear maby its the main points that will effect us.
Its not a copy and paste i just typed it out so others can attempt to figger it out.
I think i covered all this in my first couple posts of this thred as have others that called CFC
1 if the firearm was manufactured only in one of the named calibers of the regulation.
then the firearm canot be granted antique status
example smith &wesson no 3 double action frontier frt 22129
2 if the firearm was manufactured only in a none -named caliber of the regulation.
then the firearm can be granted antique status
example webley MKII frt 23368
3 if the firearm was manufactured in both named and none named calibers of the regulation.
then additional confirmation of the original chambering of the firearm is required.
i . if it was manufactured in a named caliber then the firearm cannot be granted antique status
ii. if it was manufactured in a non - named caliber, then the firearm can be granted antique status.
iii if the orignal caliber configeration information is unavailable, then the firearm can be granted antique status.
example colt 1873 frt 17644
it is understood that any other caliber marking found on a firearm whether a firearm has been rechambered to accept another caliber diffrent from the origin or not that more data or information is required.
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They are really stretching the wording of "designed to discharge" if they are tying "designed" to mean the calibre a particular pre-98 revolver rolled off the assembly line in.
Can anyone post up the most current FRT (17644?) for the Colt 1873?
Can anyone post up the most current FRT (17644?) for the Colt 1873?
Even if the RCMP/CFC overnight change their internal policy without a change in law how can they not be held to account by past precedent they themselves have set?? This boggles my mind. If they would have interpreted the designed or adapted section of the antique laws in the way they are now from the day the law was passed that would be one thing. To completely reverse their interpretation and by saying we don't care about the current lettered antiques it's to stop people from doing this in the future how can this be? Either all of these guns past and present are antique or they all are not. This is completely unacceptable and IMHO just as serious as the Swiss arms and CZ-858 reclassifications. Not all of you may own antiques that fall into these new sets of rules but as firearms owners this is very scary situation for all of us. What happens when the RCMP decides to re-interpret the law regarding bullpup stocks?
Steve
Steve
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So you're privy to backroom knowledge that you've promised not to share, yet are hinting to knowing about it and refusing to help the antique community?
While most of us aren't lawyers such information could be forwarded to the proper channels. It would be very helpful to the community if you changed your stance and posted the 'addendum' publicly where it can be forwarded to the proper channels. Otherwise you're willingly withholding information that a community member could find helpful to avoid seizure at the border of their property and investment, and face potential charges off of this change in policy, as CBSA is now acting off of these new changes in policy.
You of course are aware that you've already broken your promise to the antique lab by starting this thread? You're likely never going to get such info again as it is.
Please be very clear Dingus, is this addendum;
A; A change to internal policy in how the antiques lab classifies antique firearms, and issues status letters?
B; A change to both internal policy and a recommendation that is to be written into law?
C; Some kind of sideways measure of approach to have this policy written/interpreted into law?
D; All of the above?
E; Something else that you'd like to clarify?
Looks like a NFA FOI request and public posting of that information is in order.
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I am posting the info in the addendum and makeing it as understandable as i can.
I never promised not to share anything just not post the email.
Of course i am going to talk about the contents i said i was going to.
im just not posting the email that it was sent to me in so as not to get that person in troble.
I keep my word sorry if you dont understand that.
all the info is here just not the email copy and pasted.
It was not finished i was told that so of course theres going to be more things added or changes made.
It is Policy.
What bothers me pisses me off is they been working on this along time and we just find out because someone on cgn contacted me about antique changes to the FRT lists a CGN Buisness contacted me then i called CFC to find out why there were changes to antique FRT lists then also i asked about the changes to SAA colts being deregistered.
Thats when i got a email with the addendum info in it.
As to not helping the antique community.... no one would even know about this at all if i never started this thred.
It was a CGN Buisness man that noticed the FRT changes to antiques or i would not even have known about this at all myself. Good thing he was on the ball .
This below is more info from the email i got that shows its policy....
"This Policy covers the request for obtaining antique classification on pre 1898 handguns rechambered in modern center fire calibers that are not on the list of exempted calibers of the regulations perscribeing antique firearms section 1 paragraph 7"
Just a side note again from me not the email.
buisness members have Called CFC and were told the policy was not going to effect past letters already given out its a future policy but i know they are doing this policy because i know a few guys who have tryed to get there SAA colts deregistered and were refused.
So they have started this policy recently. id say within the last month with deregistrations.
As far as antique letter requests they have given out letters in the last two weeks to me and other members.
Maby read some of the others who posted in this thred like tigertrouts post.
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Dingus; It seems you have take offense by my earlier post, and looking back I can see why. I did post while I was hot under the collar thinking you are withholding information that could save fellow community members financial loss and criminal charges. Posting like this is out of character for me, and for that I apologize. From this point instead of sniping at each other I suggest we direct our energies to the problem at hand, and will do so myself.
There is one point in your above post that I do have to dispute as it does seem to speak ill of my own character. I haven't rolled in 3 days late, I have been helping behind the scenes (as some members here could attest to should they choose to do so) and gathering information. This thread already exsisted, along with another thread started by Shawn_Bevins showing the FRT information that was started within hours of this, so I directed my energies to this matter in other areas. I am approaching this pile of manure from multiple angles, and that has taken up significant effort and time since the NFA announcement Wed Feb 26. The information of this situation has been developing and growing daily, so it's been dificult to compile and stay on top of, and has taken a good amount of time and effort.
Again lets leave it be, and no longer snipe at each other when time and effort is better directed elsewhere. I have started the letter writing campaign - Fill their desk, mailboxes, and inboxes with paperwork (and I hope everyone clicks here and participates). Hopefully this campaign is a good direction of our time and efforts.
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Ok no worries i was pissed when i wrote my reply last night i will edit out the 3 day late comment.
We all gota stick together is right.
I am getting the info to people who are better at dealing with this stuff than i am to so dont worry im not sitting on anything.
I just dont want to get someone in troble who was only trying to help us is all.
We all gota stick together is right.
I am getting the info to people who are better at dealing with this stuff than i am to so dont worry im not sitting on anything.
I just dont want to get someone in troble who was only trying to help us is all.
iii if the original caliber configuration information is unavailable, then the firearm can be granted antique status.
example colt 1873 frt 17644
it sounds so far like this point alone could help us wriggle some guns past the techs...if we "don't know" the original chambering of a firearm that has been chambered in various calibers like the Colts have....
example colt 1873 frt 17644
it sounds so far like this point alone could help us wriggle some guns past the techs...if we "don't know" the original chambering of a firearm that has been chambered in various calibers like the Colts have....
lol if you dont know it and can prove it, they will just simply not grant the letter. They are like robots.
I applied for a letter on the 2nd of feb and as of last week I still had not heard anything from the techs, I called them and tried to get a hold of the supervisor and received this e mail:
Dear Brian,
Your request for Antique determination for a Colt handgun as been forwarded to me for answer.
In order to process your request we need confirmation on the original caliber chambering to this firearm. I understand this firearm is not in the country therefore a letter from the seller will suffice to confirm the requested information.
Thank you
Daniel Guay, supervisor
Who knows how long they will be this lenient and start to demand proof via colt museum letter
I applied for a letter on the 2nd of feb and as of last week I still had not heard anything from the techs, I called them and tried to get a hold of the supervisor and received this e mail:
Dear Brian,
Your request for Antique determination for a Colt handgun as been forwarded to me for answer.
In order to process your request we need confirmation on the original caliber chambering to this firearm. I understand this firearm is not in the country therefore a letter from the seller will suffice to confirm the requested information.
Thank you
Daniel Guay, supervisor
Who knows how long they will be this lenient and start to demand proof via colt museum letter
- Location
- Not really sure.
Yeah the French 1873's were all chambered in good to go calibers from the start?... what the hell is going on now?
Im gona ask about that tomorrow. It cant be right gota be a mistake as with alot of FRT entrys.
They were all in 11 Mm which is a antique Cartridge and they were always listed as antique.
Now the FRT is saying 45 acp ones are not. But the webley FRT on the MKI and MKII in 45 acp say its OK antique.
Just shows how screwed up the FRT really is.
It was the french 1873 FRT listing that got the buisness member to contact me.
Hopefully i get thru tomorrow and can ask why its listed the way it is.
Alot of FRT listings are wrong and you have to ask a tec to get a antique letter to over ride it so to speak.
I will post what i find out that FRT listing goes against there new "Policy"
What Started all this was the Buisness members have updated online FRT info they can look up and alot have changed at the same time the Swiss arms green rifles changed.
He noticed this and also was told he could not deregister a SAA colt that was in a No go cartridge even tho it was converted to a OK cartridge.
If you guys can think of anything else to ask about i will when i get thru.
The thing with the FRT lists dont surprise me theres alot of guns listed as restricted that are really antique.
Thats why you had to apply for letters for customs on certin guns because when customs looks up a gun your importing and the FRT says its Restricted or prohibed they have to go by the antique letter or call a tec.
I have a S&W DA Stuck in Customs now in someones locker because the barrel was shortened to 3 inchs .
Even tho theres no barrel length restrictions on antiques some customs dont know that.
So im gona be on the phone tomorrow alot .......
My thinking is they might want all the 45 acp french 1873s to get a letter from the CFC that way they know all the ones that before just had a blanket FRT print out.
They should offer to fix that FRT listing tho if there really going by there own policy.
They were all in 11 Mm which is a antique Cartridge and they were always listed as antique.
Now the FRT is saying 45 acp ones are not. But the webley FRT on the MKI and MKII in 45 acp say its OK antique.
Just shows how screwed up the FRT really is.
It was the french 1873 FRT listing that got the buisness member to contact me.
Hopefully i get thru tomorrow and can ask why its listed the way it is.
Alot of FRT listings are wrong and you have to ask a tec to get a antique letter to over ride it so to speak.
I will post what i find out that FRT listing goes against there new "Policy"
What Started all this was the Buisness members have updated online FRT info they can look up and alot have changed at the same time the Swiss arms green rifles changed.
He noticed this and also was told he could not deregister a SAA colt that was in a No go cartridge even tho it was converted to a OK cartridge.
If you guys can think of anything else to ask about i will when i get thru.
The thing with the FRT lists dont surprise me theres alot of guns listed as restricted that are really antique.
Thats why you had to apply for letters for customs on certin guns because when customs looks up a gun your importing and the FRT says its Restricted or prohibed they have to go by the antique letter or call a tec.
I have a S&W DA Stuck in Customs now in someones locker because the barrel was shortened to 3 inchs .
Even tho theres no barrel length restrictions on antiques some customs dont know that.
So im gona be on the phone tomorrow alot .......
My thinking is they might want all the 45 acp french 1873s to get a letter from the CFC that way they know all the ones that before just had a blanket FRT print out.
They should offer to fix that FRT listing tho if there really going by there own policy.
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I am waiting for Dingus' update tomorrow in case there is anything in it that will make it useful to fine-tune the letter I have ready to go. In my opinion, we should a) personally call our MP's office, b) send the letter by email (cc'ing Mr. Harper) and c) send a hard copy to him/her and cc. Mr. Harper. We want all three venues well supplied with our response. Thanks, Dingus, for keeping us informed.
I think we should also protest the reclassification of the Swiss Arms and CZ 858 rifles, as we need all the voices we can get. I am not sure whether it is better to put all three items of concern into the same letter, or send two letters, one for antiques and the other dealing with the reclassification of the two rifles. I'm all ears for advice on this.
I am also thinking short letters vs long letters are more likely to be read. Even if they are not read, the shear volume of letters is a major influence, so don't hang back simply because you think your MP might not read your letter. Volume counts.
I think we should also protest the reclassification of the Swiss Arms and CZ 858 rifles, as we need all the voices we can get. I am not sure whether it is better to put all three items of concern into the same letter, or send two letters, one for antiques and the other dealing with the reclassification of the two rifles. I'm all ears for advice on this.
I am also thinking short letters vs long letters are more likely to be read. Even if they are not read, the shear volume of letters is a major influence, so don't hang back simply because you think your MP might not read your letter. Volume counts.
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