New Australian Defense Force Assault Rifle In Action

That soldier will make it work just like anything else we do. That bullpup works lefty, watch the video. I've seen five foot nothings use the C7 with reg stock while in full gear, whats your point?

If you watch the video carefully you'll see that his head position is much further to the rear when firing from the left shoulder. It is a sales promotion after all. Just because someone can "make it work" does not mean it is ideal or desired. The adjustable stock has been available and standard for a long time and it has nothing to do with storage. A properly fitted rifle will yield superior results to a one size fits a few approach. The CF subscribed to this methodology some time ago along with many other units/nations. Bullpup has been around for quite some time and it isn't the norm. Watch any video of top level instructors and they all run their stocks only a couple notches out from closed which is much shorter than a fixed A2, why is that???

TW25B
 
If you watch the video carefully you'll see that his head position is much further to the rear when firing from the left shoulder. It is a sales promotion after all. Just because someone can "make it work" does not mean it is ideal or desired. The adjustable stock has been available and standard for a long time and it has nothing to do with storage. A properly fitted rifle will yield superior results to a one size fits a few approach. The CF subscribed to this methodology some time ago along with many other units/nations. Bullpup has been around for quite some time and it isn't the norm. Watch any video of top level instructors and they all run their stocks only a couple notches out from closed which is much shorter than a fixed A2, why is that???

TW25B

Yeah I know what the adjustable stock is for lol. I'm not saying the bullpup is superior, I'm just saying its an infantry rifle and can work like any other to fulfill its purpose.
 
Yeah I know what the adjustable stock is for lol. I'm not saying the bullpup is superior, I'm just saying its an infantry rifle and can work like any other to fulfill its purpose.

A screwdriver can be used as a hammer, doesn't mean it's the best tool for the job.

TW25B
 
Shorter barrels are inherently more accurate due to a lower amplitude of barrel vibrations, they're stiffer for a lack of a better term. The velocity from a 16" is not 2700 fps, it is closer to 3000 whereas 20" barrels average around 3200. The loss is between 4-6%(depending on ammo and who did the testing). The accepted fragmentation range for m193 or m855 is 2700 fps and above. The accepted upset yaw or tumbling range for the same ammo is 2500-2700 fps. Neither phenomenon is guaranteed regardless of velocity, so banking on the bullet to do it's magic is foolish.

Cut to the 2:00 min mark to see this individuals data, albeit it is .223. http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=213

Here's the second half from the same guy with some 5.56x45 NATO spec ammo. The 20" puts out 106 fps more than the 16", absolutely not an issue and not worth the 4" of length and weight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEaMw_yCLmo&feature=youtu.be

Here's another comprehensive chart regarding barrel length and velocity with many different brands and bullet weights.
http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=213

If you look at the xm193 data you'll see that an 11.5" puts out 2911fps, only 321fps slower than the 20" barrel that is nearly twice as long. the 14.5" puts out 2991 fps or 241 fps less velocity and the 16" a solid 3106 fps, a mere 126 fps less than the 20". Some load comparisons are less than 100 fps difference between the 20" and 16" values.

TW25B

As I said....from what I remembered. The difference in accuracy - though real enough it would seem judging by that harmonic explanation you mentioned - is hardly worth mentioning in a service rifle that's meant to do what line infantry expect their weapon to do.

Looking at that data, I see that 16" barrels produce velocity with a range of between 27xx and 32xx, with the average (55gr) velocity being 3039fps, whereas the 20" had a range between 28xx and 33xx with an average velocity of 3120fps. This with modern ammo.

So then why do we continue to issue C7s and not the newer C8A3s, considering the performance of modern ammo?
 
A screwdriver can be used as a hammer, doesn't mean it's the best tool for the job.

TW25B

If you were sent to train with the Aussies I'm sure you would learn to use their bullpup rifle. You would get used to it and perform drills just fine. Complaining about it and demonstrating a lack of drive during training would not be the best idea.
 
As I said....from what I remembered. The difference in accuracy - though real enough it would seem judging by that harmonic explanation you mentioned - is hardly worth mentioning in a service rifle that's meant to do what line infantry expect their weapon to do.

Looking at that data, I see that 16" barrels produce velocity with a range of between 27xx and 32xx, with the average (55gr) velocity being 3039fps, whereas the 20" had a range between 28xx and 33xx with an average velocity of 3120fps. This with modern ammo.

So then why do we continue to issue C7s and not the newer C8A3s, considering the performance of modern ammo?

I fully agree with your first statement. As for why the CF doesn't issue more C8's, I suspect it's a money issue along with a lack of knowledge and understanding.

TW25B
 
So it's not ambidextrous as I pointed out. It can be configured for a lefty. The height has everything to do with LOP and proper fitment. With armour and cold weather gear there is no chance the soldier can properly mount the rifle and use the optic(reddots being the exception).

TW25B

Its not ambi no, we can all agree the video is just a marketing tool and when the guy uses it left handed its just to turn a right hand corner weapon first, which you can do with pretty much any weapon on the market.

The reason the stocks are not adjustable on these is that the trigger group is in the stock itself. So to get adjustments you would be limited to bolt on cheek risers etc which are not practical in the field where the weapon gets the #### abused out of it. Personally I like the feel and balance of a bulpup more then an ar.
 
Always nice to be able to see where the shots are landing in those promotional AR videos. In some of the ones where you can, you may see strange things.
 
If you were sent to train with the Aussies I'm sure you would learn to use their bullpup rifle. You would get used to it and perform drills just fine. Complaining about it and demonstrating a lack of drive during training would not be the best idea.

I don't recall every saying anything about serving in the ADF or wishing to, so I'm unclear where that came from?

Its not ambi no, we can all agree the video is just a marketing tool and when the guy uses it left handed its just to turn a right hand corner weapon first, which you can do with pretty much any weapon on the market.

The reason the stocks are not adjustable on these is that the trigger group is in the stock itself. So to get adjustments you would be limited to bolt on cheek risers etc which are not practical in the field where the weapon gets the #### abused out of it. Personally I like the feel and balance of a bulpup more then an ar.

Well you can't mount the rifle properly on your support side when the E-port is kissing you. What about lefties or a battlefield pickup? The rifle is not ambidextrous like all bullpups to date.

I'm very well aware of how the bullpup rifle is designed and why it simply sucks. Thank you for explaining it in detail for others who may not understand the very limiting design. The balance is a plus but feel has nothing to do with performance or reliability and is a personal opinion.


Both SASR and NZSAS make use of the AUG's - although largely replaced by M4s and variants of

Huh, who would have guessed...... ;)

TW25B
 
I don't recall every saying anything about serving in the ADF or wishing to, so I'm unclear where that came from?

TW25B

Ugh, I said If. The point you're missing is most soldiers neither get a choice nor give a f##k what the weapons is, their army will train them on it they are not idiots. As long as it is reliable and accurate they will become confident and proficient with it. I surmise from your responses that if you had to train on a weapon other than an AR you would be the guy that complains alot.

If I were sent on pre-deployment WUP's and had to learn to use a rifle other than the C7/C8 I would not care, I'd do the training and achieve proficiency as would most CF guys, that is the difference between a good attitude and a poor one.

What particular 5.56 rifle is being used by which force has little effect in combat, it will come down to tactics, training, leadership and support. 10 well trained and led guys with Augs are going to kill 10 not so well trained and led guys with AR's.
 
The M4 in its 14.5" configuration is a near ideal compromise between length and performance. Naturally a shorter OAL equates to lighter weight, improved handling and superior confined space movement. Plenty of people are dead thanks to the M4 and it's 14.5" barrel, it works as advertised.

If we discuss training issues then we need to discuss what isn't a training issue. Fixed LOP is not a training issue. Non ambi use is not a training issue. Lack of rail space for designators, lights, NOD's etc is not a training issue. The fact this rifle weighs more than an M4 is not a training issue. The risk of serious injury due to the chamber being rested against your face(think catastrophic case failure or squib) is not a training issue. The horrible mechanical offset(the F90 isn't the worst offender, the type 97 and Tavor are atrocious) is not a training issue. These are real problems that are unique to all bullpups and their "cutting edge" design. The only benefits a bullpup has going for it are better balance and a more compact package when compared to similar length barrels in other rifles. The negatives listed above far outweigh those two benefits by both numeric and practical values. Entering and exiting a vehicle with a rifle of any length efficiently and effectively, is a training issue. One handed operation is far from the norm and not difficult with an AR or similar conventional rifle design, regardless it too is a training issue.

TW25B

Many of the negatives you are listing off aren't major drawbacks in the practical real world. At one point, I might have agreed with you, put my personal experience shooting the T97, Tavor and AR's, has told me different.
Fixed LOP on a bullpup is a completely different issue than fixed LOP on an AR. I'm a short guy, and I usually run my AR stocks only one click out, sometimes two. I like the stock nice and short. However, and I was also surprised to learn this at first, the fixed 15inch or so LOP on the bullpups does not hinder me whatsoever, in fact it feels incredibly natural. This is due to the drastically different weight distribution and balance vs an AR. Fixed LOP on bullpups (at least the ones I have experience with) is essentially, a non issue for most people. If anything, very tall people may find the LOP too short, just look at Hickok 45.
AR's are not exactly ambi friendly either, yet guys make do just fine. If you are a lefty, the Tavor and most modern bullpups can be converted for dedicated left hand use, easier than an AR can. If you have to switch shoulders, it can be done just fine, in fact I can always switch shoulders faster with my Tavor than my AR's. Firing off hand, not a big deal whatsoever. Be aware of the ejection port. Some rifles (F2000, P90, RFB, RDB) solve this issue completely in their own way. If you're in a full on firefight, a little brass wisking by your chin is the least of your problems, it's an annoying distraction at best and it's not like you'll be constantly shooting offhand. Again, a relatively minor issue (but issue nonetheless I grant you) being blown out of proportion.
Lack of rail space? Easily fixable, just look at the Brits L85A2. I have a Midwest industries extended handguard on my Tav. Believe me, boatloads of railspace for every toaster and can opener you can imagine. A stock C7A2 has even less rail space, so..
Weight? Weight on my Tav is very comparable to my 16inch DD when both have an optic and light, with the DD being just slightly lighter. My 20inch AR is heavier. Only my 11.5 AR is noticeably lighter than my Tav. The Tavor is generally a little heavier if you place them both on a scale naked sure, but the Tavor is basically a full size rifle in a package as long as my 11.5 AR. It's not heavy by any means compared to other rifles I own, and certainly a non issue for troops training with it 24/7.
The supposed risk due to the chamber being closer to the face is completely unproven, the one vid I did see of a FS2000 blowing up didn't injure the shooter. If it was such a problem, then armies like the Brits, French, Aussies, NZ's, Austrians, Israelis, etc, who put thousands upon thousands of rounds thru their rifles, surely would have made this well known. All I ever hear about it is internet theorizing by people trying to find reasons to hate bullpups.
The higher offset is indeed a training issue, just be aware your offset is a little higher? Again, for troops or anybody who shoots/trains with a bullpup all the time, it would be second nature.
I'm not claiming that bullpups are saviours of the world or anything. I'm just pointing out that they're a very solid and proven concept that catch a lot of flack for simply being, different than the almighty AR. If you are willing to adapt yourself to the rifle and learn it, it's advantages become abundantly clear. If you simply refuse to adapt yourself to anything different, then yes, different styles of firearms will forever be unusable to you. My personal experience has shown me that a bullpup that's designed and built right, like the Tavor, will go toe to toe with any short barrel AR, and it runs way cleaner too. The T97, while not a bad rifle, falls well short of the Tavor.
If you want a genuine drawback to a bullpup, it's that they generally fall short on accuracy when compared to an AR. Triggers are usually not as "target shooter" friendly either. AR's are also more configurable and modular. Everything else, can be adapted to through training and practice.
 
Ugh, I said If. The point you're missing is most soldiers neither get a choice nor give a f##k what the weapons is, their army will train them on it they are not idiots. As long as it is reliable and accurate they will become confident and proficient with it. I surmise from your responses that if you had to train on a weapon other than an AR you would be the guy that complains alot.

If I were sent on pre-deployment WUP's and had to learn to use a rifle other than the C7/C8 I would not care, I'd do the training and achieve proficiency as would most CF guys, that is the difference between a good attitude and a poor one.

What particular 5.56 rifle is being used by which force has little effect in combat, it will come down to tactics, training, leadership and support. 10 well trained and led guys with Augs are going to kill 10 not so well trained and led guys with AR's.

Well if only applies IF it's realistic, and it's not. I don't live in Australia and I could never qualify to serve in their military, so your example is flawed.

I don't care what soldiers do or don't do regarding their gear. Most will follow obediently without questioning the logic or merit of the training(The SPORTS acronym comes to mind along with the use of the forward assist, both stupid techniques that continue to survive through dogmatic training regimens.), and I suppose that is what the government/military is looking for. That doesn't change the fact that the rifle is far from being as efficient and effective as current offerings. You're right, you can learn the methods and the manual of arms and drive on with sound tactics. Neither of which I was discussing or criticizing. Now let's discuss the merits(or lack thereof) of the rifle itself without clouding the discussion with training, tactics, attitude, ambition or drive; The facts still remain, the rifle is not as user friendly as convention designs which have been around for many more years. Which makes me wonder what "advancement" aside from balance and shorter OAL does a bullpup offer?? That is the root question and the answer thus far is nothing. The negative attributes or problems it suffers from are ones that either don't exist with conventional designs or have been solved long ago.

The rifle isn't the determining factor in winning a fight, you're right. Stacking the deck in your favour with a rifle that has more positive attributes, is easier to use, more efficient and effective is something I would want and an easy choice, if you had it to make..

TW25B
 
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