new build...338??

[Armafix]

So far nobody mantioned 338-378 WBY as a contender here. Its ballistics is very close to 338 Lapua and somehow it is not very popular in competition shooting. There must be some valid reasons for this but what are they? Could somebody elaborate on this, please. Thank you.

Kazimier

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

So far nobody mantioned 338-378 WBY as a contender here. Its ballistics is very close to 338 Lapua and somehow it is not very popular in competition shooting. There must be some valid reasons for this but what are they? Could somebody elaborate on this, please. Thank you.

Kazimier

Wby depends on a lot of freebore to get their velocities. To have to make up custom reamer to have the free bore removed so as to get the caliber to be more predictably accurate costs $$. The few who may opt for a questionable caliber are few when there are several well known performers already available.
The 338/378 shares about the same bolt face as the 338 Lapua so to build 1 or other most will go Lapua simply because it works , brass is less costly, good dies are readily available.
To build on a Mk5 action has its own drawbacks. Lack of aftermarket parts being the big 1.
Typically Wbys are not reknowned for being accurate to the degree that can be attained from some of the other actions.
Plenty accurate for most hunters, but true precision they are lacking in compared to a real precision rifle.

 

[Armafix]

Wby depends on a lot of freebore to get their velocities. To have to make up custom reamer to have the free bore removed so as to get the caliber to be more predictably accurate costs $$. The few who may opt for a questionable caliber are few when there are several well known performers already available.
The 338/378 shares about the same bolt face as the 338 Lapua so to build 1 or other most will go Lapua simply because it works , brass is less costly, good dies are readily available.
To build on a Mk5 action has its own drawbacks. Lack of aftermarket parts being the big 1.
Typically Wbys are not reknowned for being accurate to the degree that can be attained from some of the other actions.
Plenty accurate for most hunters, but true precision they are lacking in compared to a real precision rifle.

Now I know. Thank you.

Kazimier

 

[X-fan]

Not to mention 338/378 brass is very short lived.

The 338/408 is a pretty cool round, but it just seems wrong to have to re-barrel every time I open a new box of 300SMK's!
Adding on another buck and a half or so a shot to cover the barrel wear is part of the experience I guess...

Just out of curiosity Rick what actions are currently available for that monster?

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

Not to mention 338/378 brass is very short lived.

The 338/408 is a pretty cool round, but it just seems wrong to have to re-barrel every time I open a new box of 300SMK's!
Adding on another buck and a half or so a shot to cover the barrel wear is part of the experience I guess...

Just out of curiosity Rick what actions are currently available for that monster?

Stiller makes an action for the 408, we have some coming.
We will also be building our own actions that will work with the 408 but they are still aways off.
I believe BAT makes an action as well, but last I heard we can not get them due to Dept of State issues.

Personally for the small gains of velocity versus the low brass life , low barrel life and low chances of extremely good accuracy due to the brass inconsistencies, I would not bother.
The 338LAI spits 300 gr SMKs out at over 3000 fps, has GREAT brass and barrel life and is far more affordable to shoot.

 

[BigUglyMan]

We will also be building our own actions that will work with the 408 but they are still aways off.

You're opening that can of worms again?

The 338LAI spits 300 gr SMKs out at over 3000 fps, has GREAT brass and barrel life and is far more affordable to shoot.

L.Imp. dammit!

 

[The_Shooter]

with the short days of winter here i am looking ahead to my next rifle. i want something that will go 2000 - 2500 yards accurately, and not break the bank. in the early stages that i am in, i am looking at the 338 edge, the lapua, lapua improved, and possibly the 408 chey tac. am looking for comments from those that own and shoot these rifles. things like brass costs/bullet costs/ availability of said components/ optimum barrel lengths and such. i basically shoot steel targets and am getting bored at 1000 yards so want to stretch things out a bit more. currently i am leaning towards the edge just for the fact that a rem action could be used and brass is readily available, don't know if this is much of a reason or not? thoughts everyone

I just had a 338-378 Wby Mag build on a cleaned Wby Mark V action of German origin. I have a Pac-Nor Super match in Sendero Plus contour to round it out.

Shooting 300 grain Sierra match Kings at 2900 fps (Chrony Verified) grouping a .250 MOA out 600 yards. This is as far as I have tested to date.

Anyway, faster than a Lapua with as much or better accuracy. However, this will also depend on the build parts you buy.

Recoil on the other hand is not for the faint of heart, nor anyone under 200lbs. in weight. Food for thought.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

Recoil on the other hand is not for the faint of heart, nor anyone under 200lbs. in weight. Food for thought.

I fail to understand this. My daughter who barely tips the scales at 100lbs has no problems shooting my 50s or my 338LAI
Typically the heavier the shooter the more recoil will rock them. Light folks do not have enough body mass to keep the rifle from being restained so it pushes them back more and normally hurts less.
In my experience I have found the bigger more muscular guys tend to be more recoil sensitive than the lighter weight guys or gals.

 

[The_Shooter]

Remove the muzzel brake and try again. Simple math, more mass the greater the engery required to move said mass.

Stay in school.

I fail to understand this. My daughter who barely tips the scales at 100lbs has no problems shooting my 50s or my 338LAI
Typically the heavier the shooter the more recoil will rock them. Light folks do not have enough body mass to keep the rifle from being restained so it pushes them back more and normally hurts less.
In my experience I have found the bigger more muscular guys tend to be more recoil sensitive than the lighter weight guys or gals.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

Remove the muzzel brake and try again. Simple math, more mass the greater the engery required to move said mass.

Stay in school.

Having taught rifle shooting instruction for many years and having built rifles for over 35 years I can tell YOU for a FACT that the bigger guys get beat up WAY more than the lighter 1s with bigger calibers, regardless of the whether there is a brake on the rifle.
SIMPLE PHYSICS is at work here. A heavy recoiling rifle will push a slighter built person back where as a stoutly built person has more mass to move hence they will absorb MORE of the recoil.
Go back to school you apparently missed a few physics courses!!

 

[2bad4u2]

Having taught rifle shooting instruction for many years and having built rifles for over 35 years I can tell YOU for a FACT that the bigger guys get beat up WAY more than the lighter 1s with bigger calibers, regardless of the whether there is a brake on the rifle.
SIMPLE PHYSICS is at work here. A heavy recoiling rifle will push a slighter built person back where as a stoutly built person has more mass to move hence they will absorb MORE of the recoil.
Go back to school you apparently missed a few physics courses!!

Using your logic here, a 6 yr. old child shouldn't feel a thing. Now, who's gonna be the first to put junior behind the trigger? lol

I don't know if you can quantify who'll be more affected by recoil one way or another based on physical stature.

I think a rifle's ergonomics play a huge role in how a person gets in position to shoot. A person's shooting technique is no doubt influenced in part by individual comfort level, hence their ability to manage recoil effectively.

An individual's threshold to pain likely plays a part as well, however, that's a purely subjective thing.

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

Using your logic here, a 6 yr. old child shouldn't feel a thing. Now, who's gonna be the first to put junior behind the trigger? lol

I don't know if you can quantify who'll be more affected by recoil one way or another based on physical stature.

I think a rifle's ergonomics play a huge role in how a person gets in position to shoot. A person's shooting technique is no doubt influenced in part by individual comfort level, hence their ability to manage recoil effectively.

An individual's threshold to pain likely plays a part as well, however, that's a purely subjective thing.

I think you are missing my point. Pain threshhold has nothing to do with it.
I agree stock fit and design does play into the scenario alot more than many will give credit.

A rifle in recoil moves rearward, we all know that. If the person shooting the rifle does not have much mass or strength to try and keep the rifle from coming back from recoil it will push them back alot more than a heavier massed person with greater strength to resist the rifles natural movement, there fore the recoil is more absorbed. Heavy recoil in a lighter person is partially negated by their body moving with the rifle.

I am not likely explaining this as well as possible, but basically the deal is it is easier to move a pebble than a mountain.

 

[redman]

Using your logic here, a 6 yr. old child shouldn't feel a thing. Now, who's gonna be the first to put junior behind the trigger? lol

I don't know if you can quantify who'll be more affected by recoil one way or another based on physical stature.

I think a rifle's ergonomics play a huge role in how a person gets in position to shoot. A person's shooting technique is no doubt influenced in part by individual comfort level, hence their ability to manage recoil effectively.

An individual's threshold to pain likely plays a part as well, however, that's a purely subjective thing.

ATRS is right.

Here's another way of looking at it: imagine setting up a magnum rifle on a bipod only instead of your shoulder being against the stock, you put an empty cardboard box right against the stock where your shoulder would be.

Now pull the trigger. In all likelyhood, the rifle will fly back and push the box back as well, but the box will probably be mainly intact. The empty box represents a lighter person.

Now set it up as I first mentioned, only fill the box up with sandbags (or put them on top of the box). This represents a heavier person. If you pull the trigger again, the stock will most likely punch through the box, but the box will move less than if it were empty/lighter.

The lighter box has less inertia, and is pushed by the recoil as opposed to the heavier box that has more inertia, so much so that the energy required to overcome it is greater than its structural resistance, hence the damage.

(Q.E.D. )

Now, lighter people are generally less robust, and will probably feel greater pain/discomfort from the recoil, so you're partially right as well. There are several factors at play when it comes to personally felt recoil.

 

[2bad4u2]

I didn't say Rick was wrong, just trying to point out that what he is saying is only practical to a degree. I clearly understand what is being said here but I agree only up to a point.

I just believe shooting technique and ergonomics play far more important roles in recoil management than what a person's mass does.

 

[Mystic Precision]

Newton is rolling in his grave. WOW, we just rewrote the 3 basic laws of physics with a few key strokes.

2bad4u2, you are absolutely correct. the larger the mass (person), the more energy (recoil) that system can absorb....PERIOD.

Whether that system is too happy about the absorption is another matter - the perception of pain will prove a rate limiting factor.

A light person will feel a proportionally LARGER effect under the same recoil force. The sensation of recoil will be LARGER and unless they are a masichist, it will hurt them more.

Is Rick trying to say that if you slam into a small kid and send them flying, they will feel less of that impact than if it were you or I?

Younger shooters and women will be much more sensitive to both the recoil AND the noise and concussion of these boomers.

Otherwise, the first rifle I should recommend to junior is a 458 WIN mag and cape buffalo loads..... in a 7lbs rifle.

He will not feel a thing......

Jerry

 

[mmattockx]

I am not likely explaining this as well as possible, but basically the deal is it is easier to move a pebble than a mountain.

The rifle's recoil is expressed in terms of energy. To absorb the energy, the shooter puts up a resistance (inertia and bracing your muscles against the hit) over a distance (the amount your shoulder/body moves). For all shooters the energy to be absorbed is the same (for the same rifle), so either distance traveled or the force applied to your shoulder must change.

A heavy shooter doesn't move much, so the force applied to his shoulder is high. A light shooter moves more, so the force applied to his shoulder is lower. In both cases the energy absorbed is the same, but the force felt is different.

I agree with 2bad4u2 that stock fit and other factors play at least as much or more important roles than the size of the person shooting, though.

Just as a personal observation from years of trapshooting, the guys with the flinching issues were almost always the big guys, while the skinny guys just seemed to roll with the recoil instead of eating it.

Mark

 

[2bad4u2]

Otherwise, the first rifle I should recommend to junior is a 458 WIN mag and cape buffalo loads..... in a 7lbs rifle.

And held 3 inches off the shoulder for effect...

 

[The_Shooter]

You show some serious ignorance. I can't imagine buying a rifle from you with that thought process.

Lighter mass will move more period. It's a simple law of physics. That amount of movement, a moment of inertia, will most defiantly cause injury to a 100 lb shooter. Whether from the recoil or an impact from accessory items; like scopes etc. Ever see a half moon crescent eye?

Let’s have your test subject of 100lbs shoot my set-up off a bench ( 20 rounds at 300 grs and 2900 fps) and work up some accurate hand loads. How long will it be before they give up? Not too long I lament.

Anyway, I don’t deal with stupidity. Good luck with your synapses.

Having taught rifle shooting instruction for many years and having built rifles for over 35 years I can tell YOU for a FACT that the bigger guys get beat up WAY more than the lighter 1s with bigger calibers, regardless of the whether there is a brake on the rifle.
SIMPLE PHYSICS is at work here. A heavy recoiling rifle will push a slighter built person back where as a stoutly built person has more mass to move hence they will absorb MORE of the recoil.
Go back to school you apparently missed a few physics courses!!

 

[alberta tactical rifle]

The rifle's recoil is expressed in terms of energy. To absorb the energy, the shooter puts up a resistance (inertia and bracing your muscles against the hit) over a distance (the amount your shoulder/body moves). For all shooters the energy to be absorbed is the same (for the same rifle), so either distance traveled or the force applied to your shoulder must change.

A heavy shooter doesn't move much, so the force applied to his shoulder is high. A light shooter moves more, so the force applied to his shoulder is lower. In both cases the energy absorbed is the same, but the force felt is different.

I agree with 2bad4u2 that stock fit and other factors play at least as much or more important roles than the size of the person shooting, though.

Just as a personal observation from years of trapshooting, the guys with the flinching issues were almost always the big guys, while the skinny guys just seemed to roll with the recoil instead of eating it.

Mark

Thanks Mark for putting this to words better than I did.
I am not saying that the recoil is less only that it is handled in a different way by the shooter.

I was amazed when my son shot 40 rounds from 1 of my 338s when he was 8 years old. I figured 1 shot would be all she wrote, then it occurred to me while watching him shoot it he was being pushed back under recoil ALOT more than I was when shooting the same rifle.
The recoil the rifle produced was the same, he was just "riding" the rifle rather than absorbing the recoil with his body.

 

[Mystic Precision]

I was amazed when my son shot 40 rounds from 1 of my 338s when he was 8 years old. I figured 1 shot would be all she wrote, then it occurred to me while watching him shoot it he was being pushed back under recoil ALOT more than I was when shooting the same rifle.
The recoil the rifle produced was the same, he was just "riding" the rifle rather than absorbing the recoil with his body.

Isn't ADRENALIN a wonderful thing.

I am thrilled that you have a kid that loves to shoot. It doesn't look like I will be so lucky.

However, damage is damage and young kids should not be subjected to hard hits whether it be hockey, football or shooting.

Sorry, but your thought process on this one is pretty flawed.

Jerry