New Generation Hunting Bullets

[Danny Boy]

Before we get into the next generation bullets let’s look at the conventional bullets.

By conventional bullets I am looking at the lead core copper jacketed bullet which has been around for hunting for the last 50+ years. The conventional bullets are developed for accuracy and high velocities, and they expanded significantly upon impact. While they work well on thin-skinned games, they tend to come apart on bigger games, loosing too much of its weight and resulting in insufficient penetration. When hitting big bones some of them just come apart.

The premium class conventional bullets such as Partition, Fail Safe etc including the bonded class (Scirocco, Accubond, Interbond…) are designed to hold the bullet better under the higher speed of magnum rounds. They work well but still loosing 30-50% weight. Hunters are now better informed of the effect of lead fragments left on game meat.

Not long ago Barnes started the introduction of lead free hunting bullets with the X Bullet and has now evolved into the TSX, MRX and TTSX. A year ago Nosler followed with E-Tip. Many hunters in this Forum have tried and attest to their viability in deep penetration and 95%+ weight retention with a perfect mushroom. They outshine the conventional bullets on heavy games and big bones. Do a search on TSX and you will find out.

As an old Partition fan for many years I have tried the TSX for three hunting seasons. I am impressed with the results. I can’t speak for the MRX and the TTSX as I have no experience on them, but I do notice that they are expensive. As other manufacturers introduce new products they will drive the prices down on these new generation bullets.

There is no question in my mind that sooner or later the government is going to ban the use of lead bullets for hunting. There is still plenty of time for me to use up my Interlocks and Partitions.

 

[Foxer]

I don't think conventional bullets were coming apart in big game animals. A lot of moose and elk and other large critters fell to good ole fashioned cup and core bullets for a lot of years. It was 'speed' that brought an end to their use in many modern chamberings. 'conventional' bullets don't do well with high velocity impacts.

Bullets like the tsx allow hunters to push a lighter bullet faster and get good results. In the old days if you wanted better penetration etc you loaded your 30-06 with 200 grain bullets, or 180's at least. Then you were fine, and it'd plow thru a moose no sweat. But - you increased the ballistic arc, reducing it's effective range.

Now you can get the same hitting power out of a 168 grain x bullet going a couple hundred feet per second faster with a flatter trajectory and slightly less recoil.

And for faster 'magnums' and such they're a necessity.

Still - a lot of game taken each year with good ole fashioned bullets that still do the job just fine at moderate speeds.

I don't know about this business of 'lead in the meat'.

 

[Gatehouse]

I've used the Barnes X, the TSX and the TTSX to take game, and they all work really well. I prefer them to the partitions, which used to be my "go to" bullet.

I've pretty much settled on TSX or TTSX and Accubond bullets for hunting.

 

[bjjzak]

On the lead in the meat issue, there's probably more lead in your domestic waterlines feeding your house, especially so in older houses and subdivisions / main feeds. Or at least the pencils we would chew on as kids. Lead in game meat, while it might actually exist in some miniscule amount, is probably nothing compared to the exposures we get just going out in public.

On the TSX, just switched this year to the 150 in my 308, the 168 in my 300 and a 200 in my 350 rem mag, looking forward to seeing how the do.

 

[Danny Boy]

Bullets like the tsx allow hunters to push a lighter bullet faster and get good results. In the old days if you wanted better penetration etc you loaded your 30-06 with 200 grain bullets, or 180's at least. Then you were fine, and it'd plow thru a moose no sweat. But - you increased the ballistic arc, reducing it's effective range.

Now you can get the same hitting power out of a 168 grain x bullet going a couple hundred feet per second faster with a flatter trajectory and slightly less recoil.

This is essentially my observation - use lighter bullets to gain speed.

Given that these bullets are working so well, I am thinking of moving gradually away from the magnums eg. Using .308 instead of 300WM

 

[Danny Boy]

On the lead in the meat issue, there's probably more lead in your domestic waterlines feeding your house, especially so in older houses and subdivisions / main feeds. Or at least the pencils we would chew on as kids. Lead in game meat, while it might actually exist in some miniscule amount, is probably nothing compared to the exposures we get just going out in public.

I first read about the lead fragmentation effects five years ago. I started cutting meat off 3” away from the bullet hole thinking that was good enough.

After seeing these research results, I stopped using lead bullets. These clipping made a believer out of me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZJXderphCM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4Wbj41j67A

For those of you with young kids, I advise you not to feed them with meat harvest with lead bullets. It is a matter of choice.

By the way, I don't own any shares in Barnes.

 

[H4831]

Talk about the Chicken Little (the sky is falling, the sky is falling) syndrome, this lead in wild meat has topped every scare theme we are now subjected to!!!!
Anyone who would cut away three inches of meat around a bullet hole in meat, must be afraid to clean their teeth. They could choke on the toothbrush!
Did all that lead in the gas kill the population? Surly all that lead based paint, always on childrens cribs which they liked to chew on, and sometimes on tables or cupboards we ate off of, must have finished us off.
You mean to say that none of us, who have eaten wild birds killed with a shotgun, haven't swallowed the odd #7 1/2 pellet?
What a world we are living in.

 

[stubblejumper]

Or at least the pencils we would chew on as kids.

There is no lead in a lead pencil.

http://www.officemuseum.com/pencil_history.htm

 

[H4831]

Danny Boy said the "old" jacket covered lead bullets had been around for 50+ years. Try 110 plus years! And, believe it or not, they actually did kill big game.
Fifty or so years ago, CIL came out with their, Copper Point (expanding) bullet in some of their ammo. This was shaped like a pointed, FMJ, but in the centre at the point, was a solid copper brad. On impact this drove in and expanded the bullet. The rest of the bullet was very tough. I shot moose and other big game with this in a 30-06, and I actually think it was superior to the Nosler partition, which I later used. That ammunition was very highly thought of by grizzly bear hunters.
Most of the Dominion brand bullets were excellent for big game, and highly regarded, even by US shooters and hunters. Some US, guided hunters, would buy their ammunition in Canada. (Johnn, I personally saw a US hunter buy four boxes of 348 Winchester, before going on his hunt.)
Right after the war, about 63 years ago, Fred Barnes came out with a new bullet for tough big game. He actually used copper pipe, like you would buy in a hardware store, for the jacket, swadged with a lead core. I have used these in a 30-06 in each of 150 and 200 grain weights. They opened up well, then retained nearly all their weight. The 200 gave great penetraion on moose, but so did the 150s. One time a bull moose jumped up in front of me, as I hunted through heavy, green timber. I saw the antlers, then he kept his head low and ran straight away from me. He was close, but was very soon going to disappear in the trees. I aimed at his tail and let fly with the 150 grain Barnes. He collapsed within thirty feet.
Here is a picture of the Barnes 200 grain bullets I talk about. Notice the very heavy jacket. The front bullet was pulled and by the point, looks like it has been in the magazine, while another was fired.

 

[ben hunchak]

Today's lead is much more potent then yesteryears, look at it wrong and you're toast, but, one problem, it kills humans quickly if ingested, but doesn't kill game like it used to. You absolutely have to use "new generation bullets" read "more expensive", even for today's skinny little whitetails.

 

[curtmg]

Today's lead is much more potent then yesteryears, look at it wrong and you're toast, but, one problem, it kills humans quickly if ingested, but doesn't kill game like it used to. You absolutely have to use "new generation bullets" read "more expensive", even for today's skinny little whitetails.

Don't forget, that even following such sage advice, the new generation bullets will bounce right off the deer's hide, if not launched from a magnum rifle.

 

[Qc_BearHunter]

Problems happen when people try to shoot 150 grain conventional bullets from their magnums because they think they have a flatter trajectory.

Go with a heavier bullet. His higher BC will easily compensate at longer range for it's lower speed at the muzzle and you'll get enough penetration on game.

I do most of my hunting with hornady interlock SP and they are fine. Last fall I shot a small bull moose at 50 yards with my 300WinMag loaded with a 200 grain speer SP bullet. Frontal chest shot through the center of the sternum, full penetration, I never found the bullet as it was lost in the stomach.

I like to shoot and I like to hunt with the loads I shoot most. This build confidence. I just hate sending 1$ bullets in the gravel pit...

However I do play with premiums like the partition and the barnes in my 257WBY.

 

[Danny Boy]

Talk about the Chicken Little (the sky is falling, the sky is falling) syndrome, this lead in wild meat has topped every scare theme we are now subjected to!!!!
Anyone who would cut away three inches of meat around a bullet hole in meat, must be afraid to clean their teeth. They could choke on the toothbrush!
Did all that lead in the gas kill the population? Surly all that lead based paint, always on childrens cribs which they liked to chew on, and sometimes on tables or cupboards we ate off of, must have finished us off.
You mean to say that none of us, who have eaten wild birds killed with a shotgun, haven't swallowed the odd #7 1/2 pellet?
What a world we are living in.

From your writing I understand that you don’t disagree with the search result - lead fragment in game meat can be harmful for human consumption in the long run.

This is the early stage warning, like warnings about cigarette smoking 30 years ago alerting the general public about lung cancer. Despite the warning, a significant portion of the population continues to smoke. Some are cancer free living into the 90s. Unfortunately a large number die of lung disease each year.

In my part of the country, smoking is banned in public buildings and in cars with children, and along with the use leads based paints, lead shots for birding hunting….. You don’t have a choice anymore. The use lead bullet is not regulated and you have your choice.

There is no question that you are brave and don’t worry about the long term effect of ingesting lead. Keep in mind that lead poison accumulates over a long period of time. Early symptoms of lead poisoning include inability to make good judgements.

By the way, you are very precise in saying 110+ years history in jacketed bullets. I don’t think I am wrong by saying 50+ years. You are just better.

Cheers!

 

[rem338win]

I personally am a firm believer in cup and core bullets for many applications, but use premiums while hunting the majority of the time these days. I have started going back to using smaller calibers for all of my hunting, so I use the premium to provide increased penetration on larger game.
Realistically if I where to have one larger caliber rifle for larger animals and one for deer size and smaller I would have no problem with using cup and core bullets. I would probably try to keep MV around 2800fps in these circumstances though (ie. 30-06 with 180grs, 338 WM with 250grs, 35 Whelen with 225grs, 7x57 with 150grs, 308 with 150/165grs, 6.5x55 with 140grs, etc)

 

[Amphibious]

I think danny boy fancies himself a gun mag writer? just look at his last few threads and the general tone of the writing?

 

[Pathfinder]

In my part of the country, smoking is banned in public buildings and in cars with children, and along with the use leads based paints, lead shots for birding hunting….. You don’t have a choice anymore. The use lead bullet is not regulated and you have your choice.


Cheers!

Correct me if Im wrong but You can still use lead shot for Grouse hunting, just not for Duck.

By the way Do you own a Copper Mine ?

 

[Wrong Way]

Ummm....dannyboy?

yeah....you might wanna stop using your water.......

See, unless your house is less than 10 years old or so, the plumbing conections of your copper pipe (all of them...T's, elbows, connectors, etc) are soldered with lead. Every ounce of water that you use to drink/wash/cook with/brush your teeth has lead in it.....use your google-fu to freak yourself aout about that

Frig....my last moose was 1500 lbs. My bullet weight (including jacket) was 180 grains.

The recovered (partition) bullet weighed 132

A big chunk of that weight is in the retained core (say....100)

The jacket is responsible for at least 20

so that leaves 12 grains of lead unaccounted for.

Whats that divided into 1000 lbs of meat?

Holy cow......

 

[Win 38-55]

Well I use cast bullets in all my guns, including my 30-30, made from used wheel weights and that's my idea of the 'next generation' bullets. To clarify, they are 'recycled and reused', they are cheap like borscht, they are 'all natural (made from all natural ingredients) and they don't come apart, at least not the soft cast bullets I use. That YouTube stuff has a long way to go before it becomes peer-reviewed literature.

And another thing ..... I don't eat the wound channel. I figure that any lead that comes off my cast bullets is mostly in the first 1/2 inch of meat/bone/guts around the channel and I don't eat that anyway as it's all bruised. But I sure don't trim back 3" (although I use slow-chugging bullets that make a nice hole but not a massive bruise like those hyper-quantum-space-curving-light-speed-whoopee-magnums do). I recommend promoting the soft-cast lead bullet made from recycled wheel weights pushed at sane velocities .... the environmentally friendly, all-natural, recycled solution to the bullet problem.

 

[joe-nwt]

Well I use cast bullets in all my guns, including my 30-30, made from used wheel weights and that's my idea of the 'next generation' bullets. To clarify, they are 'recycled and reused', they are cheap like borscht, they are 'all natural (made from all natural ingredients) and they don't come apart, at least not the soft cast bullets I use.

What are other bullets made from, unholy spawn of Satan?

There is no question in my mind that sooner or later the government is going to ban the use of lead bullets for hunting.

What, if any, would the rational be for banning lead hunting bullets? With migratory bird hunting, lead shot was banned because of a supposed claim that other birds were eating the lead from the bottom of the lake/pond/slough and getting lead poisoning. Are you suggesting that other animals are going to ingest lead bullets that are laying on the ground? If its personal health from eating meat that may or may not have some minuscule amount of lead in it that is of concern, may I point out that while you cannot smoke in many public places, they have yet to ban smokes. Because they don't care what you do to your own body.

Maybe they will implement a "lead" tax. You know, to help pay for the medical costs associated with lead poisoning from hunted meat......Say, why is it that we never hear of anyone with lead poisoning from eating hunted meat anyway? Could it be that it's a non-existent issue?


So why do you want to turn it into one?......

 

[Win 38-55]

What are other bullets made from, unholy spawn of Satan?

Well, don't let this get around, but if the truth be told, the other ones are made from all-natural ingredients too, except those that have the plastic or nylon tips .... now those just ain't organic.

As far as a lead tax, I've been collecting wheel weights all winter and now have 700 pounds worth in my garage. Come spring, I'm going to do some serious melting and ingot-pouring.