New gun: 35Whelen or 350mag?

m1978- please explain to my how any non-belted, non-rimmed bottlenecked cartridge chambered in a properly constructed front locking bolt action gun could ever possibly develope any headspace over time, let alone more than any other cartridge. If a rifle develops headspace over time, it's due to the action stretching, not the cartridge. If your gunsmith told you that, get a new gunsmith.
Mike
 
I vote for the Whelen. I've got a factory chambered BDL that was floated and bedded by the fellow that owned it prior (I'm second owner) and dropped the trigger down to 3 pounds or so.
I've only shot 200gr Core-Lokts out of it and it makes really nice groups. I dropped a nice 4 pointer just inside 100 yards with it this year and aside from losing a bit of tenderloin, I was very happy. I found the lead just inside the hide on the far side, and it kept together well. (About 70% weight retention, since that's all the rage these days)
 
mike shickele said:
m1978- please explain to my how any non-belted, non-rimmed bottlenecked cartridge chambered in a properly constructed front locking bolt action gun could ever possibly develope any headspace over time, let alone more than any other cartridge. If a rifle develops headspace over time, it's due to the action stretching, not the cartridge. If your gunsmith told you that, get a new gunsmith.
Mike
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has something to do with the sloping shoulder. hey mike, :onCrack:

i'm sorry, but i will trust the word of someone like ken waters, a man whose life work was dedicated to the study of rifle calibers (ditto for the gunsmith), over you. i'm inclined to believe that they are more expert in this matter. nothing personal.

frank barnes, in his book "cartridges of the world", also mentions that "the ackley improved case provides vastly superior headspace control." ok, there i've told you :)

in all fairness though, the headspace issue of the whelen is likely overblown, and is probably more apt to occur with irresponsible handloading. still, there is little doubt that the 350 case design is superior, espicially regarding durability in hot loads.


cheers

all i can say to folks here, is do your own research and go from there. there's plenty of discussion regarding the whelen cartridge and headspace online.
 
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m1978-In going back and reading Ken Waters pet loads I find no indication of him believing that the 35 whelen has inadequate shoulder for headspace, In direct contrast, page 420 says "Now about the design. Although the 35 whelen is formed from 30-06 brass, some 35 whelen dimensions are slightly different from the corresponding measurements of the 30-06. For example, the case length is 2.484 inches on the whelen (according to colonel whelen's original design) and 2.494 inches on the 30-06. From the base to the point of the shoulder, the whelen is 1.960 inches, and the 30-06 is 1.948 inches. But the shoulder angel is the same 17.5 degrees, and the all-important base dimensions are the same. Forget any loose talk you may have heard about the 35 whelen lacking enough shoulder for adequate headspacing. "Tisn't so: it has plenty of firm bearing on a correctly reamed chamber."
Mike
 
m1978- if you think the 35 whelen is apt to problems; never buy yourself a 9.3X62mm. Yup, same shoulder angle, though it in fact as a smaller shoulder due to the increased bore diameter. I wasn't going to point this out, but that little smoking ball annoyed me.
Mike
 
mike shickele said:
m1978- if you think the 35 whelen is apt to problems; never buy yourself a 9.3X62mm. Yup, same shoulder angle, though it in fact as a smaller shoulder due to the increased bore diameter. I wasn't going to point this out, but that little smoking ball annoyed me.
Mike
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hahahahaha! no problem mike, 444 marlin is more my flavour these days anyhow. a few years back when shopping for a medium bore (missed the whelan) i recalled that technical fact about the 9.3x62. another thing that turned my off the 9.3x62 was that the bullet selection was rather limited compared to .35.

on the other hand, i'd buy damn near anything that is made by cz :)

after thinking it over, i suppose that the headspacing issue is likely more due to foolish reloading practices more than anything else. you might have been right about the gunsmith :), however. his advice was to get rid of that whelan because of the headspacing issue, however i wish i would have rechambered it to an ackley-improved .35.

cheers
 
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Another internet myth is that a 1:16 twist that Remington uses in the Whelen is to slow for 250gr. bullets....:stirthepot2:

SeaBass....If you are going to shoot cast boolits (and the .35 cal. is a excellent cast boolit cal.) I would go with a 1:16 twist as it is easier on the boolit as it starts its trip down the barrel...less rotational skidding, esp. with softer hunting alloys such as air cooled wheel wts....
 
35 Whelen is my vote, unless you really want to step out and go with the 9.3x62. 9.3 has more bullets available, 250 and 286 from Nosler and Barnes, 270 from Speer, not sure about Hornady but likely something, 250 and 286 Normas in abotu 4 different bullet styles, Swift offers Scirocco and A Frames (300 gr I believe is their heavy weight A Frame)and 320 Woodleighs, if you want to get really crazy. It's better than both the 35s but pretty similar to the Whelen in terms of performance. The real plus is there being more 366 bullets out there.
 
m1978 said:
anyhow, the gunsmith who looked at the whelen told me that whelens can develop headspace issues over time, and ken waters, in his book "pet loads" also mentioned the same thing. i believe that was the impetus behind the "35 whelen improved." mind you, the average shooter who loads responsibly probably wouldn't shoot the thing enough to develop problems.
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m1978 .......

I have both the 1980 dated 35 Whelen article and the subsequent 35 Whelen Update, both by Ken Waters and and both from Pet Loads. I can't find in either article where Waters claims that the Whelen "can develop headspace issues over time".

Could you please advise as to where this is written?


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I suppose any bottle neck cartridge can develop "head space problems" over time if the shoulder is set back excessively with each resizing. Being of the function trumps accuracy point of view when it comes to cartridges for hunting rifles, this is a minor concern from my perspective. Most often the primer pockets enlarge before the case fails anyway.

A belted case must be viewed somewhat differently, and has more in common with a rimmed case. The belted cartridge headspaces on the belt for the first shot, and in subsequent loadings can be, should be, resized with minimum shoulder setback so as to allow the cartridge to headspace on the shoulder for the maximum case life. If this is not done, the cartridge may very well fail just ahead of the belt within a few reloads. Again, from my point of view this is a non-issue for the hunting rifle, as the cartridge must first and foremost cycle easily through the rifle. A long range target rifle could certainly make use of handloading procedures that minimize the shoulder setback.
 
SuperCub said:
m1978 .......

I have both the 1980 dated 35 Whelen article and the subsequent 35 Whelen Update, both by Ken Waters and and both from Pet Loads. I can't find in either article where Waters claims that the Whelen "can develop headspace issues over time".

Could you please advise as to where this is written?


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sorry, my mistake. wasn't in "pet loads". i have a stack of magazines in the basement somewhere and i clearly recall reading an old article about whelen headspace issues.

the fact that this "rumour" as some call it exists may have an element of truth to it, similar to how stereotypes are formed. perhaps the question is whether the case design is the cause, or was it something else.

the gunsmith i had seen regarding the whelen enthusiastically suggested i get rid of it, as mine had headspace issues. the tone of his voice suggested this was not uncommon.

for all intents and purposes these cartridges are almost the same. perhaps it would be fair to say that if one prefers a short action they should get a .350, if not, who cares. my whelen had issues, my 350 works fine. my .02.

i guess get a whelen and find out whether this is a myth or not for yourself
 
m1978 said:
i guess get a whelen and find out whether this is a myth or not for yourself
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I'm on #6 Whelen right at the moment, but haven't fired it yet. Four of them have been 7600s and the other two were 700s.

The 7600s worked fine with regular FLR [not SB] dies and all brass was full length re-sized. The 700s just used the same dies, but neck sized only. I haven't had any problems to date.

I think you'll find that a proper chamber, properly sized brass and reasonable loads will give you no problems. IIRC the 9.3x62 and the 35Rem both have shoulders less than the 35Whelen and no one complains about headspace problems with them.



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