New Handgun, CFO, and no club membership
- Thread starter kkramar
- Start date
Section 28 of the Firearms Act states:
28. A chief firearms officer may approve the transfer to an individual of a restricted firearm or a handgun referred to in subsection 12(6.1) (pre-December 1, 1998 handguns) only if the chief firearms officer is satisfied
(a) that the individual needs the restricted firearm or handgun
(i) to protect the life of that individual or of other individuals, or
(ii) for use in connection with his or her lawful profession or occupation; or
(b) that the purpose for which the individual wishes to acquire the restricted firearm or handgun is
(i) for use in target practice, or a target shooting competition, under conditions specified in an authorization to transport or under the auspices of a shooting club or shooting range that is approved under section 29, or
(ii) to form part of a gun collection of the individual, in the case of an individual who satisfies the criteria described in section 30.
Other than submitting a club membership for whatever range, is there any other way to satisfy the CFO that you are in compliance with section 28(b)?
You don't need to be a member to frequent a range or many ranges...
(i) for use in target practice, or a target shooting competition, under conditions specified in an authorization to transport or under the auspices of a shooting club or shooting range that is approved under section 29
The first part of (i) covers it. Doesn't say ANYTHING about requiring proof of membership at a club. The CFO is making #### up. Period.
(i) for use in target practice, or a target shooting competition, under conditions specified in an authorization to transport or under the auspices of a shooting club or shooting range that is approved under section 29
The first part of (i) covers it. Doesn't say ANYTHING about requiring proof of membership at a club. The CFO is making #### up. Period.
"A chief firearms officer may approve the transfer to an individual of a restricted firearm or a handgun referred to in subsection 12(6.1) (pre-December 1, 1998 handguns) only if the chief firearms officer is satisfied"
The question is how do you satisfy the CFO of the purpose other than submitting your club membership.
The question is how do you satisfy the CFO of the purpose other than submitting your club membership.
He has to be satisfied that we are using it for the intended purpose. If your not a collector then you target shoot. If you dont have a club memembership how do you targetshoot if you do not belong to a club. If you are complaining about getting a membership then apply for collector status. I dont see what the big deal everyone is making.
I just purchased my first firearm today (thanks to this great site) and was made aware of this by the seller. So I called my CFO and inquired as I am also not a member of a club yet. The one I am joining requires a probation period and a vote. What I was told is differnt provinces have different rules. In Alberta they require an LTATT but here in Ontario you do not. In fact they do not issue LTATT unless you actually own a restricted firearm first.
You would think that all Provinces would have the same standard set of regulations but I guess that is asking a lot.
I have a membership and no problems getting my transfers approved, so to me it doesn't really matter.
The reason as to why I referred to section 28 of the FA is that in earlier posts it is stated that the FA doesn't flat out say that you must have a membership to get a transfer through, even though the FA is written in such way that it implies that you need some sort of evidence to satisfy the CFO of your compliance with the section of the FA.
If you don't have a membership or are a collector, what other ways can you satisfy the CFO that your purpose is legit?
The reason as to why I referred to section 28 of the FA is that in earlier posts it is stated that the FA doesn't flat out say that you must have a membership to get a transfer through, even though the FA is written in such way that it implies that you need some sort of evidence to satisfy the CFO of your compliance with the section of the FA.
If you don't have a membership or are a collector, what other ways can you satisfy the CFO that your purpose is legit?
No club, no problem! Just present your ATT proving that you can legally transport the restricted firearm to any club you choose!
Except I've never heard of this happening... and I'm pretty sure they won't issue an ATT for a gun you don't own yet, kind of a catch-22...
And frankly given the requirements for lawful discharge of a restricted firearm, is it really that onerous to supply a club membership? I think this is one of very, very few sections of the firearms act and regulations that I really don't have a problem with.
Of course you can simply say that you're a collector, then all you have to do is
1) prove to the satisfaction of the CFO your knowledge of the historical, technological or scientific characteristics of the firearm
2) provide a signed consent to the periodic inspection of the premises in which the restricted firearms are to be kept
3) prove to the satisfaction of the CFO your knowledge of the "Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulation"
... Seriously?! Have these people *met* some collectors? :OD
(read the collector in the voice of Mater, from Cars ie. Larry the Cable Guy)
CFO "And what are the technical characteristics differentiating this firearm from the other 23 in your collection?"
Collector "The what now?"
CFO "I'm trying to determine what the focus of your collection is - the theme - a particular time period, type of action, category of firearm, or whatever. Collectors are expected to know significantly more about their preferred firearms than the average gunnut..."
Collector "Nut? ... Oh... Walnut."
CFO "Walnut?"
Collector "Yeah, walnut. 'nut stocks, 'nut grips, 'nut inlays - anything 'nut!"
CFO "I see... Alright, well then I just need your signed consent to inspect, you can fax it, and do you have any plans for handling, or display?"
Collector "You want a signed... consent, to inspect the handling... or display, of my 'nuts?"
Yeah....
Except I've never heard of this happening... and I'm pretty sure they won't issue an ATT for a gun you don't own yet, kind of a catch-22...
And frankly given the requirements for lawful discharge of a restricted firearm, is it really that onerous to supply a club membership? I think this is one of very, very few sections of the firearms act and regulations that I really don't have a problem with.
Of course you can simply say that you're a collector, then all you have to do is
1) prove to the satisfaction of the CFO your knowledge of the historical, technological or scientific characteristics of the firearm
2) provide a signed consent to the periodic inspection of the premises in which the restricted firearms are to be kept
3) prove to the satisfaction of the CFO your knowledge of the "Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulation"
... Seriously?! Have these people *met* some collectors? :OD
(read the collector in the voice of Mater, from Cars ie. Larry the Cable Guy)
CFO "And what are the technical characteristics differentiating this firearm from the other 23 in your collection?"
Collector "The what now?"
CFO "I'm trying to determine what the focus of your collection is - the theme - a particular time period, type of action, category of firearm, or whatever. Collectors are expected to know significantly more about their preferred firearms than the average gunnut..."
Collector "Nut? ... Oh... Walnut."
CFO "Walnut?"
Collector "Yeah, walnut. 'nut stocks, 'nut grips, 'nut inlays - anything 'nut!"
CFO "I see... Alright, well then I just need your signed consent to inspect, you can fax it, and do you have any plans for handling, or display?"
Collector "You want a signed... consent, to inspect the handling... or display, of my 'nuts?"
Yeah....
You can take your CFO to Court
New Brunswick ATT Court Decision
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=280782
New Brunswick ATT Court Decision
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=280782
Wendell.
My question was in regard to transfer.
Example:
John Doe passes the CFSC and gets his RPAL in the mail,.
He find a restricted firearm for sale in CGN's EE .
Seller initiates transfer, sends John Doe the reference number and will ship the firearm to the door so John Doe does not need the ATT.
John Doe calls CFO to finalize the transfer.
CFO says please fax a copy of your club membership to support your claim of purpose ie target practice.
John Doe doesn't have a club membership and receives this in the mail 2 weeks later.
Since the wording is such that the CFO can only approve of the transfer if he is satisfied that the purpose is for target practice or gun collection, if John Doe does not have a club membership or does not hold a collector status, How can he satisfy the CFO's criteria without submitting any documentation?
Since the CFO won't take John Doe's word for it, other than submitting a club membership for whatever range, is there any other way to satisfy the CFO that you are in compliance with section 28(b)?
Hope this makes my question a bit clearer.
My question was in regard to transfer.
Example:
John Doe passes the CFSC and gets his RPAL in the mail,.
He find a restricted firearm for sale in CGN's EE .
Seller initiates transfer, sends John Doe the reference number and will ship the firearm to the door so John Doe does not need the ATT.
John Doe calls CFO to finalize the transfer.
CFO says please fax a copy of your club membership to support your claim of purpose ie target practice.
John Doe doesn't have a club membership and receives this in the mail 2 weeks later.
Since the wording is such that the CFO can only approve of the transfer if he is satisfied that the purpose is for target practice or gun collection, if John Doe does not have a club membership or does not hold a collector status, How can he satisfy the CFO's criteria without submitting any documentation?
Since the CFO won't take John Doe's word for it, other than submitting a club membership for whatever range, is there any other way to satisfy the CFO that you are in compliance with section 28(b)?
Hope this makes my question a bit clearer.
I'm comfortable with the present reality of our CFO having a prejudice that a person who has not shown the initiative to join and maintain membership in an approved shooting club is not truly serious about target shooting...because I have that prejudice also.
The CFO is charged with ensuring that restricted firearms are acquired and used in accordance with the law. The CFO must be satisfied that a restricted firearm is actually being used for the (stated) purpose for which is is being (or for which it was) acquired. Like it or not, this is his job; this is what we pay him to do. As stated, the easy way to demonstrate this to the satisfaction of the CFO is to be a member in an approved shooting club. (And it is easy.)
If, like the IPSC member from New Brunswick, you are willing to argue your individual case, and would prefer to argue than to join a club (and to thereby avoid argument), more power to you. You may even win. And if you win, I will applaud you. But, in taking the road less traveled by, you're on your own.
The CFO is charged with ensuring that restricted firearms are acquired and used in accordance with the law. The CFO must be satisfied that a restricted firearm is actually being used for the (stated) purpose for which is is being (or for which it was) acquired. Like it or not, this is his job; this is what we pay him to do. As stated, the easy way to demonstrate this to the satisfaction of the CFO is to be a member in an approved shooting club. (And it is easy.)
If, like the IPSC member from New Brunswick, you are willing to argue your individual case, and would prefer to argue than to join a club (and to thereby avoid argument), more power to you. You may even win. And if you win, I will applaud you. But, in taking the road less traveled by, you're on your own.
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Wendell.
I agree, and personally, I don't think there is any other way to satisfy the CFO other than submitting the club membership or hold a collector status.
Personally I don't have any problems paying for a club membership to avoid any hold ups or rejection of future transfer applications. To me it's a $50 investment to ensure hassle free transfers.
My point is that there is no way to satisfy the CFO other than submitting support documentation, even though others has stated "nowere on the websites or the CFP books for transfers does it say anywhere about having to have a membership", "the "CFO is making up rules", "you don't need to be a member", "nowhere in the Firearms act does it require a gun club membership","The CFO is making up regulations", etc, etc.
I'm just saying that because of the wording in the Firearms Act it is "implied" that we have to satisfy the criteria of the CFO and that we must be able to support our claim with proper documentation.
It may not say it in the Firearms Act that we have be members of a shooting range or club, but the Fireams Act does not dictate what kind of documentations that has to be submitted along with the different applications. I'm willing to bet that if we saw the paper form of the transfer application it will ask us to submit proof, just like we are asked to submit proof of passing the CFSC when we submit the PAL/RPAL application.
On another note... I hope everything works out for you kkramar
I agree, and personally, I don't think there is any other way to satisfy the CFO other than submitting the club membership or hold a collector status.
Personally I don't have any problems paying for a club membership to avoid any hold ups or rejection of future transfer applications. To me it's a $50 investment to ensure hassle free transfers.
My point is that there is no way to satisfy the CFO other than submitting support documentation, even though others has stated "nowere on the websites or the CFP books for transfers does it say anywhere about having to have a membership", "the "CFO is making up rules", "you don't need to be a member", "nowhere in the Firearms act does it require a gun club membership","The CFO is making up regulations", etc, etc.
I'm just saying that because of the wording in the Firearms Act it is "implied" that we have to satisfy the criteria of the CFO and that we must be able to support our claim with proper documentation.
It may not say it in the Firearms Act that we have be members of a shooting range or club, but the Fireams Act does not dictate what kind of documentations that has to be submitted along with the different applications. I'm willing to bet that if we saw the paper form of the transfer application it will ask us to submit proof, just like we are asked to submit proof of passing the CFSC when we submit the PAL/RPAL application.
On another note... I hope everything works out for you kkramar
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