New IPSC BC Doubletap

"Rightly or wrongly, IPSC is/has built a reputation up for itself as an anal, snobbish pursuit for people with big egos and big wallets."

I don't have a big wallet, and most of us in the sport don't. IPSC shooters come from all walks of life; not just the financial elite. Like most of the guys I know I have to penny pinch to be able to compete and I do so because I love the game.

Disagreements aside, I have stayed in this sport for almost 22 years largely because of the people. IPSC people are the best people I have ever met, and if that sounds elitist, too bad. They are by and large smart, honest, decent folks with one common interest/passion that they all choose to express in different ways. Sure, we're an opinionated bunch but I would rather someone expressed an opinion intelligently than kept it to himself for fear of offending someone. Debates can get heated, but so what? Debate is learning new things.

I have had some of the absolute WORST recreational times of my life playing golf. In general, my impression of those folks is that they are just way too high-strung and full of themselves for me to be able to go out and enjoy a game without feeling pressured to perform. Sure, I royally SUCK at golf, but when I started out in IPSC and sucked at it, no one EVER chastised me for taking too long. They helped any way they could and offered tons of free advice. Try being a lousy golfer at any busy golf course in the GTA and one of the wardens will be on your ass like stink on sh*t. That is what happened to me when I took my Dad out for a birthday game. We didn't even finish the game and haven't been back since. I don't need that kind of pressure when I am trying to enjoy myself. Golf is also a hell of a lot more expensive than IPSC in my opinion. Those green fees will kill you if you play a lot.

Additionally, my wife has been into competitive running for years. At a race, typically no one will even talk to you unless you approach them first. I have never perceived any real sense of camaraderie in competitive running. Not so in IPSC.

In any sport where you have a few people at the top of the rank structure you are going to have the appearance of snobbery to those who look on from the outside. It's unavoidable, since those onlookers really have no idea what they are seeing, so they tend to "interpret" the behavior in a vacuum. But walk up and ask anyone of those people a question and you will likely get more information than you can ever use. Is there the occasional jerk in the sport? Sure, you run into some jerks from time to time but that does not constitute a paradigm.

Take care that you don't form your opinions of the sport exclusively from the content of an on-line forum. This or any forum, though certainly interesting, sometimes heated and confrontational and yes, even informative, has about as much to do with IPSC as bathroom wall graffiti has to do with the inner workings of a large corporation. Like anything, you have to be a involved participant to fully understand.
 
Well, I am IPSC's House in Canada and I think it's in excellent shape. Our membership is growing and our clubs and sections are hosting more matches every year. Our national championship is a sell out event, as are many of the Level 3s across this country.

I don't think I am a snob; :confused: I'm certianly not going to land on anyone's list of "richest people" doing what I do. I even answer my own phone.

So while you're craping on me, my board and my fellow competitors, let me point out that I've never bashed your sport; IDPA here, and honestly have no interest to. As I've said before, I look forward to someone setting it up and running it so I can try it, but that said, I have no doubt that if IDPA ever grows to our size, it will have the same arguments and problems that IPSC enjoys, just like every other serious competitive sport. There's no way that competition can avoid it.

I can understand how your vision of IPSC is based on what you read written by maybe 10% of our membership that post here, but you're really making a big mistake.

What would you expect them to post? - "WOW - I went to the match last week and nothing notable happened, everyone hugged each other and we decided we should all be winners..." No way! They're going to post thier arguments and opinions 'cause during the match they're too busy shooting and competing.

Ok, I'll be a snob on this last part - get your game to our level, and then come crapping on us, OK?
 
Now I will ask you, did any of those supportive, fine folks you associated with (not being facetious here) wear camo to the matches? Have tattoos? Be a party to all of the other things, that apparently are so bad for IPSC (which was the content of this thread in the first place)?

The thread is about a criticism of rules that are designed to affect perceptions. I've just spent the last couple of pages being slagged royally because I offered you perceptions from the outside, looking in, as a non-participant. The perceptions I offered are as a shooter, not as a member of the general public.

The IPSC shooters whine, #####, insult and blacklist one another for a variety of issues, then get concerned about "wearing camo" as you might be seen as whack-jobs, by the public... Don't you see it? You are ALREADY seen as whack-jobs, simply because you trash yourselves from coast to coast about rules, about events, about non-players.
This is what I mean about fixing your house, if you want to be seen by the great unwashed as something worth pursuing, not about camo, or tattoos, or silly hats or whatever.
If you want a dress code, write a dress code. Expect to lose members because of it, initially. Fix the incessant infighting over rulings, ROs and personality clashes.

I know that you guys have a good time at the range., and that there are supportive people all over the IPSC scene. Use some of that support and fix the crap that causes threads like these. Then you'll be ready to take the sport to the non-gun owning public.

Take care that you don't form your opinions of the sport exclusively from the content of an on-line forum. This or any forum, though certainly interesting, sometimes heated and confrontational and yes, even informative, has about as much to do with IPSC as bathroom wall graffiti has to do with the inner workings of a large corporation. Like anything, you have to be a involved participant to fully understand.
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Ok, I'll rent the DVD or watch the weekly TV show ;) The content of an on-line forum, or the IPSC websites, is where people get their ideas about IPSC, when they're not in a position to attend frequent matches. You are the ambassadors of your sport whether you want to be or not. IPSC is not mainstream sports. Places like CGN are where people will come to find out about it. Some will say great! lets party!, others - "what a bunch of losers". Too bad most of you didn't get Storm's post about Trinity's outfit... My opinion about IPSC comes mostly from CGN because I can't regularly get to matches. Where else does an observer get it?
 
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What has IDPA/CDPA done to promote shooting or attract new shooters? :rolleyes: IDPA has grown a reputation itself too, a bunch of fat men running around pretending to be swat members. :dancingbanana:


Skip said:
"club" is correct. Club matches have very little to do with attracting new members or opening the sport to non-shooters. For lessons about that, talk to Stormbringer. Dressage? Please... maybe the comparison is not too far fetched.

Rightly or wrongly, IPSC is/has built a reputation up for itself as an anal, snobbish pursuit for people with big egos and big wallets. Just read the IPSC threads on the first page of this forum. Wah, wah, wah all through the threads.
I don't doubt for a minute that when you guys, particularly Nutz, get together for a shoot you have a good time, but you sure do spend a lot of time, too much time, bickering. So where's the attraction? Its like going to dinner with a couple of friends who are about to divorce, but can't figure out what to do with the assets.

IPSC needs to fix its house. It needs to figure out what it exists for and for who. My home club has had maybe one IPSC event in 5 years - this is a club of 500 members, of which 1-200 "support" the handgun range (20 showed up for the annual meeting in which events and range development are discussed. The word IPSC never came up. There was a lot of discussion about SASS and CA events on on the books (this is Ontario don't forget), in addition to the regular fun shoots held every summer), even though we have stands lying around all over with "IPSC" marked on them.

I am IPDA/CDPA certifed - took the second CSSA CDPA course offered. IPDA is gaining ground because its all the things IPSC is not.

My point is this: you guys are caroming off one another over the minutiae of rules, and dress, so as to be politically correct, but you're not addressing the issues that will keep people away from the sport. They're not lining up for "dressage" either. I re-iterate what I said earlier: IPSC needs to fix its house. It needs to figure out what it exists for and for who.

Quigley, you continue to demonstrate my point...:rolleyes: ;)
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Skip said:
The thread is about a criticism of rules that are designed to affect perceptions. I've just spent the last couple of pages being slagged royally because I offered you perceptions from the outside, looking in, as a non-participant. The perceptions I offered are as a shooter, not as a member of the general public.


..
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When you decided to write in this thread, did you expect the posters here to agree with everything you wrote or did you expect a quick response debating your opinions?
 
Skip said:
The IPSC shooters whine, #####, insult and blacklist one another for a variety of issues, then get concerned about "wearing camo" as you might be seen as whack-jobs, by the public... Don't you see it? You are ALREADY seen as whack-jobs, simply because you trash yourselves from coast to coast about rules, about events, about non-players.
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Poppycock.

The general public gives not one goat's tailhair about our internal politics. They are scared of guns, period.

If it was internal politics they were scared of, then there would be a soccer ball registry.
 
Musky Hunter said:
What has IDPA/CDPA done to promote shooting or attract new shooters? :rolleyes:
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Well from the attendance I have seen at the matches they do well ,I notice a lot of former IPSC member as well ,Its nice there is no gaming and lawyer's are not needed :p

Musky Hunter said:
IDPA has grown a reputation itself too, a bunch of fat men running around pretending to be swat members. :dancingbanana:
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Really that what was thought of IPSC in the 70's and is still thought of by many shooters today my self excluded as I neither have the inclination nor do I wish to lower my standards:D to go back and start shooting IPSC again any time in the foreseeable future:runaway:
 
OK. I got my PAL when I was 30, and my black badge when I was 31. I am 33.

From the outside looking in:

I saw a tv thing a few years ago about Joan Crawford's bodyguard. Some israeli chap. They showed him doing something that looked all tactical, and stuff. He was shooting 6 little metal circles in a row, and shooting cardboard cutouts that looked vaguely like people. Dingdingdingdingdingding ba-bang ba-bang, that sort of thing.

It looked very military, and very much like some sort of paramilitary training.

Bear in mind, I'd never held a gun in my life, at that point.

I realise now, that what I was seeing was USPSA/IPSC.

If had seen that same show, but it was on ESPN, the dude was an accountant, and and the guy had been wearing a bright green golf shirt covered in manufacturer logos, a pair of cargo shorts, cleats, and a Freedom Ventures ballcap, it wouldn't have looked nearly as paramilitary.

That's all we're talking about, here.

Saying the internal politics of IPSC has anything near the impact of the context in which the activity itself is seen is pretty ridiculous.
 
Savage said:
Well from the attendance I have seen at the matches they do well ,I notice a lot of former IPSC member as well ,Its nice there is no gaming and lawyer's are not needed :p
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Former? Why former? You mean, I can't do both?

This is simply my own humble opinion, but there are no range lawyers in IDPA yet because everybody in Canada who does it is a pretty crappy shooter, so the competive aspect just hasn't developed, yet. Pop would be one of the very few exceptions to this.

Really that what was thought of IPSC in the 70's and is still thought of by many shooters today my self excluded as I neither have the inclination nor do I wish to lower my standards:D to go back and start shooting IPSC again any time in the foreseeable future:runaway:
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Lower your standards. Dude. Seriously. The top USPSA shooters in the States OWN IDPA down there. Leatham. Sevigney. You name it.
 
"Now I will ask you, did any of those supportive, fine folks you associated with (not being facetious here) wear camo to the matches? Have tattoos? Be a party to all of the other things, that apparently are so bad for IPSC (which was the content of this thread in the first place)?"

I gave my opinions on that issue earlier on in this thread. I won't bother to repeat them.

"The thread is about a criticism of rules that are designed to affect perceptions. I've just spent the last couple of pages being slagged royally because I offered you perceptions from the outside, looking in, as a non-participant. The perceptions I offered are as a shooter, not as a member of the general public."

It is not a rule; it is a guide line and open to interpretation on a case by case basis by the RM. So far, I have never seen it be a problem, as most people do not push things too far simply for the purpose of making a statement.

"The IPSC shooters whine, #####, insult and blacklist one another for a variety of issues, then get concerned about "wearing camo" as you might be seen as whack-jobs, by the public... Don't you see it? You are ALREADY seen as whack-jobs, simply because you trash yourselves from coast to coast about rules, about events, about non-players."

I disagree. We are seen as whack-jobs because we like to play with guns, and so are you for that matter. I have never yet seen anyone black-listed in this sport, if by that you mean some sort of sanction. This is only a forum for discussion and debate and, true, it can sometimes become heated. But I defy you to show me a forum for any competitive endeavor that isn't so. Nothing of value, including the free exchange of ideas, comes without some form of trauma. In my opinion, this heated exchange has nothing at all to do with how people perceive us. It seems pretty logical to me that people who think it appropriate to come to a competitive arena dressed as some sort of commando certainly wouldn't do much to foster positive perceptions in the uninitiated, hostile or fence-sitting public, but then, I haven't yet seen anyone do this in the years I have been competing.

"This is what I mean about fixing your house, if you want to be seen by the great unwashed as something worth pursuing, not about camo, or tattoos, or silly hats or whatever.
If you want a dress code, write a dress code. Expect to lose members because of it, initially. Fix the incessant infighting over rulings, ROs and personality clashes."

I think our house is just fine. You don't live in it so really, how would you know? Your perceptions are exclusively external. Golf has a dress code. Most courses won't even let you play in jeans, and I don't see anyone staying out because of it. Very few people who would be drawn to our sport would be the sort of people who feel the need to get noticed in that way, so I really don't think we're going to loose anyone. If you don't want to come out and play because we don't want you to dress like a mercenary and call negative attention to all of us while doing so, then you are coming out for the wrong reasons in the first place...in my opinion. But having said that, I think our guidelines are intended to reflect common sense rather than dictate it. As such, most people in the sport tend to govern themselves with a certain level of restraint. That does NOT preclude a healthy debate over the issue however.

There are all sorts of rules one could fixate on and use as an excuse to not play. I don't like the steel calibration rules. Never have. But I suck it up and play the game with the rules as they are written. If there was a rule that told me I could not wear jeans then I would wear something else to compete and debate the issue every chance I got. Someday someone will debate the rule well enough that it'll get changed.

"I know that you guys have a good time at the range., and that there are supportive people all over the IPSC scene. Use some of that support and fix the crap that causes threads like these. Then you'll be ready to take the sport to the non-gun owning public.



I'm done, I have guns to clean...."
 
Savage said:
Well from the attendance I have seen at the matches they do well ,I notice a lot of former IPSC member as well ,Its nice there is no gaming and lawyer's are not needed :p

Really that what was thought of IPSC in the 70's and is still thought of by many shooters today my self excluded as I neither have the inclination nor do I wish to lower my standards:D to go back and start shooting IPSC again any time in the foreseeable future:runaway:
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I call BS on the gaming part, I have not seen a sport that gaming is not involved. "A lot of former IPSC members", or guys that do both...?, or guys that went to half dozen matches and decided they didn't like it.
I have found the most humbling experience was my 1st match. I didn't come in last, but I was in no way close to 1st. A lot of people give up after attending a few matches, I think because they expected that because they can shoot reasonably accurate on a static target, they would fair much better. They don't practice, or their brain can not process information that quickly, and therefore they never improve. Or they don't look over the results and note improvement, or only see failure all the time. I look over results and remember how I completed the stage; what can I do to improve?; what should I practice?

Some folks just can't hack it, and give up, or blame the rules or other peoples financial situation for their shortcomings and not doing well.(if I had a race holster or a fancy gun I would do better than that guy BS:rolleyes: )
Others stick it out and do what they have to to get better.
I will not put down IDPA style shooting, any more than I would put down Bullseye or airgun. Each is different and I respect that IPSC is not for everyone. I can appreciate the patience that it must take to try and get a perfect score in Bullseye, and yet I also appreciate the dexterity it must take to complete a mag change with retention. But I also respect the practice it must take to get to a level of such great shooters as Rob Leatham, Todd Jarret, Blake Miguez, Matt Burkett, and our own Canadian Champions. (**note, they all shoot in IPSC/ USPSA, but usually clean up in IDPA)
 
Bartledan said:
Former? Why former? You mean, I can't do both?

This is simply my own humble opinion, but there are no range lawyers in IDPA yet because everybody in Canada who does it is a pretty crappy shooter, so the competive aspect just hasn't developed, yet. Pop would be one of the very few exceptions to this..
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You can do both if like so knock your self out ,The reason there are no range lawyers required because is that the Gaming attitude that is prevalent in IPSC is not allowed the people who compete in IDPA could most likely own your A**

Bartledan said:
Lower your standards. Dude. Seriously.
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Well that may have been worded incorrectly. After being involved with IPSC in the late 70's and into the late 80's the change of attitude amongst the shooters has changed for the better NO , More range lawyers are required and the infighting amongst the members has increased from friends of mine that still shoot IPSC. and one last thing IDPA and IPSC have the same roots and for those that think IPSC is the only shooting sport well you are entitled to your own opinion just like me
 
Skip said:
Have tattoos?
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Oooh! ooh! I do! I do! Except I don't show them at matches, because it's too hard to take my pants off and I don't want to run around in a man thong all day - no belt loops.

Too bad most of you didn't get Storm's post about Trinity's outfit... My opinion about IPSC comes mostly from CGN because I can't regularly get to matches. Where else does an observer get it?
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Nobody ever talks about the positive stuff because it's all done at the range. What's the point in me saying on here, "That was an awesome stage with those two barrels and the box in the middle, wasn't it?" The guys in Ontario have no idea what I'm talking about, and I've already done all of my talking with the guys that were at the match. What am I going to do, post "Hey Rob! Remember when we were talking earlier and I said I really liked your idea for which targets to shoot first after stepping off the activator? I still like it!" Again, nobody knows what the hell I'm talking about. (Although it was a really good idea).

On the other hand, if I get screwed at a match by a bad call, then of course I'm going to go online and ask the entire community, "Do you think I got screwed by this call?" because I'm looking for sympathy. (I never do this by the way. I always bat my eyelashes, give big puppy dog eyes, cry and just get laughed at by the RO's and my associates; I won't call them friends, the bastards). Or maybe I'll ask, "Is this legal, can you tell me why or why not" and sit back and listen to the variety of opinions which may appear as bickering as opposed to the brainstorming and discussion that it really is.

An IPSC match is too diverse, too unique. If you haven't seen the match or stage in person, even a picture or a video can't capture what the stage was like. How can you expect to put it in words and hype up how awesome it was? You would need multiple camera angles, stage diagrams and comparisons between a good run and a bad run to really capture the excitement. Most of use don't have the time to do that, we just want to get ready for the next match. :D
 
Quigley: Thanks for pointing out that I did not write the article.

Stormbringer: Cammo, tattoos, etc do not bother me at IPSC Events. Offense slogans on T-Shirts do.

I am glad Don wrote the article because it created a discussion and got people thinking about the subject.

DVC
 
Savage said:
You can do both if like so knock your self out ,The reason there are no range lawyers required because is that the Gaming attitude that is prevalent in IPSC is not allowed the people who compete in IDPA could most likely own your A**
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I'll take that bet.

In fact, I'll raise you one: so long as no sandbagging IPSC master or GM shows up, I bet I'll win it.

For stakes, I propose 1 pitcher of beer. I'll fly out for one of your matches next summer.

Deal?
 
Well I will say out the outset that while I shoot both IPSC and IDPA I prefer IDPA. We all have our preferences and I have mine. I enjoy both.

That said anyone who thinks the IDPA crowd hasn't had their eyes crossed over the rules just has not been around long enough. When Wilson changed the rules in 2005 the Forums down south lit up like a red light over a whore house at night fall!

USPA started the Single Stack Division to attract pi$$ed off IDPA shooters and the beat goes on. Wish IPSC Canada would too.

With respect to Rob who started this thread, it has become more about dress at the range than IPSC rule 5.3.

If shooting sports and gun ownership was more mainstream and not going through what we have for the last two decades I wouldn't care a rats ass what anyone wore or how they looked but shooting sports are not mainstream, nor is firearm ownership after three decades of Liberal social engineering (I have had a gun store owner tell me he is happy we have to have a PAL to buy ammo - certainly would not want to ever go back to just selling it to the "public"). Because of where we are and what we may achieve under a Conservative Majority I salute IPSC for instilling a dress code for their sport.

We have one growing shooting sport in Canada and another on the way. Play one or both but for god's sake lets not go at each others throat.

Rob Leatham and Todd Jarett are IDPA Champions and own USPA or is it the other way around.:confused: and who cares!

Take Care

Bob
 
Savage said:
The reason there are no range lawyers required because is that the Gaming attitude that is prevalent in IPSC is not allowed
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OK, Seriously, I've heard this stated about IDPA a couple of times; and I don't get it. I'm assuming it's because I haven't got the training yet, but I really do want to know -

HOW do they not allow a gaming attitude?:confused:
 
In the shoot I have attended I have not seen "gaming". some guys are better shooters than others but what is there to "Game" for.

With our group our monthly club matches are timed and the results posted. If you come in first your name goes at the top of the page or at the bottom if I decide to post the scores in decending oder to play with their minds. LOL

Prizes, well at the end of the year you compete for a gold medal, silver or bronze medal oh and the expense of having your name put on our trophy.

Guns are all stock and are classified per the rules. Stages are much shorter than IPSC so other than modifying your gun as the rules allow I am not sure what a cheater could achieve by bending the rules in some fashion. I guess if we played for more there might be an incentive to "Game". There isn't and we don't.

Take Care

Bob
 
Sorry - still not getting it. 99.9% of the time, IPSC competitors are only competing for a trophy or plaque or medal too. Thier gun modifications are pretty well laid out (ok a little confusion in production) so in these two cases we're the same.

Our short courses are similar. Let's go with "gaming a start position" - 'cause we both must have that. We both say "start position is seated in chair, hands on knees, butt on chair." The competitor then puts his feet way back along side the chair and leans forward. How do you guys handle that?
 
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