New IPSC rules interpretations: Fibreoptic OK on PD guns.

I can't comment on the XD. Everybody that is an XD proponent tells me that the XD has the exact same trigger system as the Glock. I always thought it was strictly single action, too (ie the trigger simply drops the striker whereas with the Glock, pulling the trigger completes the movement of the striker before it falls/hits).

I'd like to see Production Appendix include a list of allowed modifications (eg any open sights). If it ain't on the list, it ain't allowed. As for mag wells...they could do something like with the standard box or the open magazine gauge. If the opening for the mag well is wider than a certain size, it's production illegal.
 
hungrybeagle said:
I can't comment on the XD. Everybody that is an XD proponent tells me that the XD has the exact same trigger system as the Glock. I always thought it was strictly single action, too (ie the trigger simply drops the striker whereas with the Glock, pulling the trigger completes the movement of the striker before it falls/hits).

I'd like to see Production Appendix include a list of allowed modifications (eg any open sights). If it ain't on the list, it ain't allowed. As for mag wells...they could do something like with the standard box or the open magazine gauge. If the opening for the mag well is wider than a certain size, it's production illegal.
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Just for the record, I favor the inclusion of the XD.

Incidentally, we're going to be neighbors. I'm moving to Vancouver the day after the nationals.

:)

Oh, and I agree. Production should have an objective list of rules, rather than a per-gun opinion-driven criteria system.
 
If you can't drop the hammer twice without racking the slide it is not a double action autoloading pistol. Of course, that's just my opinion.
 
MrFritz said:
If you can't drop the hammer twice without racking the slide it is not a double action autoloading pistol. Of course, that's just my opinion.
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That's absolutely true.

But then it's called production division, not double action division.
 
Personally, I like shooting 9mm, so I'll stick with this no matter what. Also, as long as the requirements for a 5lb DA/first shot is there, there'll always be a limit to what one can do with the trigger, so that will keep things from getting TOO crazy, plus the no mag wells and no obvious external modifications will always keep 'regular' duty guns reasonably competative (no, not all of them will be on the same level, but even without ANY modifications at all, a Tanfoglio Stock will be 'better' than some old Ruger, for example, so don't worry about every gun on the list being equally good).

Maybe a min SA pull, based on a survey of what the factory pulls are, to try and prevent hidden trigger jobs?

I feel that it's useless trying to implement rules which are totally unenforcable (imagine a law against dryfiring your gun at home). Unless there is some mechanism of enforcement, there is no point in the rule - we know people won't follow the most restrictive interpretation of the rules and regulations... That's how I feel about some of the Production restrictions. Find a way of checking for it, or give it up - reality wins over ideology every time.
 
Dragoon said:
The 'big deal' is that this could lead to other 'allowed modifications' that will turn Production Division into nothing more than a double action version of Standard Division......have you priced an STI Edge lately?
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I thought it was that already.;)
When you say 'allowed modifications' you could really use that arguement towards individual guns and gun designs -ala XD, Glock or guns with factory modifications made to suit the division rules. As others have pointed out, the whole list of approved pistols is questionable.
If people have already shot matches with outwardly modified production guns (and yes it has happened in Alberta), what are the chances more are out there with internal modifications?
If a rule can be bent, it will happen regardless. If people can get away with breaking the rules, they will.
I agree the only real way to curb it is by drastically reducing the number of guns in the division to all but a handful or assigning 'match guns'.
 
Bartledan said:
Oh, and I agree. Production should have an objective list of rules, rather than a per-gun opinion-driven criteria system.
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On this note, anyone should feel free to talk with me about how this rolls at IPSC and the General Assembly at either my table or at the AGM (but not my two shooting days, please)... Always happy to explain how and why we are where we are.
 
I've seen some production guns with non OEM sights on them. I've also beaten guys with them. The way the rules are (were) I find it acceptable and like the idea of shooting a stock pistol. Production should stay on target with stock "combat firearms" and maybe even ban adjustable sights just to make sure everyone is even. I have not shot a L3 yet so I don't know if they scrutinize all the firearms, but at L2 they do not and it is based on honesty (or not). Let's keep it stock!
 
maybe I'm missing something, but I interpret it differently..

11. In respect of Appendix D4 Point 20.2, the expression "same type and kind" means "any open sights" (see Rule
5.1.3.1).

20.2 Aftermarket sights of the same type and kind offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun.


My interpretation is

20.2 Aftermarket sights which are "open sites" offered by the OFM for the approved handgun are permitted, provided their installation and/or adjustment requires no alteration to the handgun.

Since Springfield does not offer any types other then the ones that come with it, they cannot be changed.. the clarification of "any open site" is still restricted by the "offered by the OFM for the approved hangun".

Now.. there is no "as an option" which is specified in the restrictions, and the "same type and kind" restriction has been changed, so MAYBE. does this mean any aftermarket site which is offered by thier custom shop (as it would fall under the "approved" catagory, apply???
 
if you go to the referenced global village thread you will see that the people responsible for these interpretations have very specifically said that any open sight of any kind, except ghost ring,can be fitted to any production gun, as long as you do not modify the slide. So discussion of how to interpret the phrase " same type and kind" is pointless.
 
ckc123 said:
Since Springfield does not offer any types other then the ones that come with it, they cannot be changed.. the clarification of "any open site" is still restricted by the "offered by the OFM for the approved hangun".
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Not so...you can most certainly order a Springfield XD pistol with Fiber-Optic sights installed by Springfield's Custom Shop. During the various debates over whether Fiber-Optic sights should be allowed, and the SP-01 being permitted with FO sights, it was decided (for whatever reason)that Springfield's Custom Shop did not qualify as a part of the Springfield OEM factory.
I like FO front sights, not because I think they'll "give me an advantage", but quite simply because I can see them. My eyesight and glasses really have a hard time with "plain" iron sights. I would install an FO front sight on a duty/defensive pistol. ;)
 
I have only shot in one IPSC weekend match in Lethbridge and seen many cheaters.

I've heard "Hey check out my chi com 75 - I did the trigger job myself" to wolf spring this in a Glock to they never check that for titanium parts etc.

It almost turned me off the sport when a few days before Lethbridge I had to disassemble my 75B to get a trigger spring to stay pd legal even after Redleg (TSE) handed me a free witness spring after my spring busted in my SP01. Made me feel like a real chump to special order parts in from Ontario and pay the extra shipping to not get the parts and find every other person in PD is filthy anyway.

Dont see a big deal with fiber however. Hobdell or Tyc have been using it for a while. Actually a lot of the CZ guys I have talked to use fiber on the SP01 lately in PD no problems.

IPSC is a competitive sport - people are going to push for more all the time.

D_
 
D_ said:
I have only shot in one IPSC weekend match in Lethbridge and seen many cheaters.

... find every other person in PD is filthy anyway.
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As someone who is in your "every other person" group, I find that comment offensive. I have made two mods to my production gun, grips and a factory short trigger, both of which are well within the rules. If you think that someone is cheating, then you owe it to yourself and every other competitor to give the supposed cheater a chance to explain themselves, and if they can't convince you that their mods are legit, report them to a Match Official.

Complaining about something and not being willing to do something about it isn't cool.
 
OEM is OEM. including springs. You did the right thing (although more expensive) than using a non-OFM spring. Some people may come to the conclusion (in regards to springs) that "almost the same", or "just like" the OFM is legal; but it isn't.

FYI, I purchased a "spring kit" (two reduced hammer springs, and recoil spring) off ebay over a year ago, as it was very cheap (like $10).
It would give an advantage for my DA trigger pull, BUT, it is not legal in PD so I am stuck with ordering a complete HK match trigger kit, as I have a bend in the match hammer spring (it is a softer spring, and it got a slight bend in it when I went to reinstall it after cleaning:mad: ).
I tried to order a seperate Match hammer spring, but FN sports sent me two regular hammer springs:rolleyes:
 
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MrFritz said:
As someone who is in your "every other person" group, I find that comment offensive. I have made two mods to my production gun, grips and a factory short trigger, both of which are well within the rules. If you think that someone is cheating, then you owe it to yourself and every other competitor to give the supposed cheater a chance to explain themselves, and if they can't convince you that their mods are legit, report them to a Match Official.

Complaining about something and not being willing to do something about it isn't cool.
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Ditto that. I have put an extended mag release in my gun and that's it, everything else is identical to how it came off the line at the factory. I admit I don't look particularly close at other competitors firearms but I also have yet to see anything that wasn't legal. If I did I'd have no problem stepping up and asking about it.
 
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