New Ladder test - More hope, maybe an end.

Kelly Timoffee

Kelly Timoffee

BANNED
BANNED
BANNED
EE Expired
Rating - 100%
52   0   0
Location
Prince Albert, Sk
A new Vanguard stainless again in 300WM.

190 LRAB and 212 ELD-X.

Looks like the rifle hates the LRAB but there is some potential now with the ELD's.

Still not the best ladder I've done by a long shot but better than the last test/rifle.

The 190 ABLR and velocities.





The 212's and velocities.





The velocities on the 212's is bizarre or my timer wasn't working properly.

Shooting felt good, no pulled shots, took my time, actual shooting part felt very good.

Just can't seem to get a break.
 
Last edited:
While some of the very best shooters in the world, with the very best equipment in the world, can get close, I have NEVER seen or heard of anyone shoot 10 shots of the exact same load into one hole at 100 yards. Never. Ever. Even with the rifle bolted down to a fixed concrete block that does not move it just doesn't happen.

Starting at 75gr, load 5 of each at 1gr increments. Load another 5 at 75gr to start with as foulers, to warm the barrel up, and sight in the scope.

With the 6 following loadings (75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80gr), if that is what you have determined is where you wish to test:
On individual targets for each loading point: Record all five velocities. They should all be within 30fps or so. Average them. Average the impact point.
Now you have a general idea of the average velocity and the average impact point. You also have a good idea of how they group at each.
Hopefully there are some clear indications of what works and what doesn't. You now have a good idea of a starting point to focus on. Do the same at 0.2gr or 0.3gr increments surrounding that loading level.

You also have enough information available to figure out what you are doing right, wrong, or doesn't matter one way or the other.

If every loading level indicated close velocity grouping, yet every loading level looks like it was shot with a shotgun, then set that powder and/or bullet aside. Your rifle hates it for some reason.

If each loading level has wildly scattered velocity groupings of over 50 fps or more then you had best check your charging methods. Something is wrong with your powder measurements and you are beating a dead horse.

My opinion. Take it or leave it.
 
pacobillie said:
Looks like either your chrono or your scale is off. Did you calibrate the scale and check it for consistency?
Click to expand...

Scale is good , you had me worried as I check it each use , I use calibrated check weights.

I just checked and checked and checked my charge master vs my beam scale with the weights and powder charge.

Might have been the sun/clouds as the day previous the chronograph worked well on a couple 7/08 ladder tests with the same set up.
 
rick357 said:
While some of the very best shooters in the world, with the very best equipment in the world, can get close, I have NEVER seen or heard of anyone shoot 10 shots of the exact same load into one hole at 100 yards. Never. Ever. Even with the rifle bolted down to a fixed concrete block that does not move it just doesn't happen.

Starting at 75gr, load 5 of each at 1gr increments. Load another 5 at 75gr to start with as foulers, to warm the barrel up, and sight in the scope.

With the 6 following loadings (75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80gr), if that is what you have determined is where you wish to test:
On individual targets for each loading point: Record all five velocities. They should all be within 30fps or so. Average them. Average the impact point.
Now you have a general idea of the average velocity and the average impact point. You also have a good idea of how they group at each.
Hopefully there are some clear indications of what works and what doesn't. You now have a good idea of a starting point to focus on. Do the same at 0.2gr or 0.3gr increments surrounding that loading level.

You also have enough information available to figure out what you are doing right, wrong, or doesn't matter one way or the other.

If every loading level indicated close velocity grouping, yet every loading level looks like it was shot with a shotgun, then set that powder and/or bullet aside. Your rifle hates it for some reason.

If each loading level has wildly scattered velocity groupings of over 50 fps or more then you had best check your charging methods. Something is wrong with your powder measurements and you are beating a dead horse.

My opinion. Take it or leave it.
Click to expand...

That is essentially what I do once I decide on a node or two to test.

3 shot groups though as I don’t feel I need much more to determine if a charge weight is workable.
 
rick357 said:
While some of the very best shooters in the world, with the very best equipment in the world, can get close, I have NEVER seen or heard of anyone shoot 10 shots of the exact same load into one hole at 100 yards. Never. Ever. Even with the rifle bolted down to a fixed concrete block that does not move it just doesn't happen..
Click to expand...

Come to mission rod and gun and watch the 6ppc guys. Its crazy how small some of those guys can group. In the 1s or 2s for sure.
 
Distance to target?

Iit will shoot tighter once you get on node - ABLR seem erratic to me always, shoot ten shots and six are great, four flyers with tuned loads. Try a faster burning powder too. 190's @ 2800 and 212's @ 2700 fps is just luke warm in a 300 win mag
 
OP, the bullets you are using are very decent bullets but they most certainly are not IMHO match grade.

No, I'm not implying they aren't consistent but I've used both and I have never had better accuracy with them than 1.5 moa at any distance, out of any rifle, from 308Win to 300H&H.

I don't think their jacket thicknesses are consisted all the way around.

Still, they are definitely accurate enough for hunting moose/elk out to 300+ yards.

Your average group, through a new rifle is around 4 moa and that could be coming from a bedding issue.

I may be wrong on this but I believe your rifle has a 1-12 twist rate, which may or may not properly stabilize those long bullets.

Not knowing your tolerances, have you developed a slight flinch? How much parallax does your reticle have at the distance you were shooting. Vanguards are light and kick like mules if they don't fit.
 
The velocity plateau you observed between 77 and 77.5 grs suggests to me that 77 grs is a good working load with the 212s. Nothing of significance is gained by increasing the powder charge beyond that point, and it should be a little easier on primer pockets at that pressure level. I'd load up a few rounds with that load and see how it performs at the ranges you intend to shoot it at.
 
Last edited:
bearhunter said:
OP, the bullets you are using are very decent bullets but they most certainly are not IMHO match grade.

No, I'm not implying they aren't consistent but I've used both and I have never had better accuracy with them than 1.5 moa at any distance, out of any rifle, from 308Win to 300H&H.

I don't think their jacket thicknesses are consisted all the way around.

Still, they are definitely accurate enough for hunting moose/elk out to 300+ yards.

Your average group, through a new rifle is around 4 moa and that could be coming from a bedding issue.

I may be wrong on this but I believe your rifle has a 1-12 twist rate, which may or may not properly stabilize those long bullets.

Not knowing your tolerances, have you developed a slight flinch? How much parallax does your reticle have at the distance you were shooting. Vanguards are light and kick like mules if they don't fit.
Click to expand...

I just checked both the Howa and Vangard on line spec pages, and both rifles when chambered in .300 Winchester have a 1:10 twist.
 
todbartell said:
Distance to target?

Iit will shoot tighter once you get on node - ABLR seem erratic to me always, shoot ten shots and six are great, four flyers with tuned loads. Try a faster burning powder too. 190's @ 2800 and 212's @ 2700 fps is just luke warm in a 300 win mag
Click to expand...

I was pretty close, only 240 yards.

I might do one group of the LRAB just to discount them entirely.
 
bearhunter said:
OP, the bullets you are using are very decent bullets but they most certainly are not IMHO match grade.

No, I'm not implying they aren't consistent but I've used both and I have never had better accuracy with them than 1.5 moa at any distance, out of any rifle, from 308Win to 300H&H.

I don't think their jacket thicknesses are consisted all the way around.

Still, they are definitely accurate enough for hunting moose/elk out to 300+ yards.

Your average group, through a new rifle is around 4 moa and that could be coming from a bedding issue.

I may be wrong on this but I believe your rifle has a 1-12 twist rate, which may or may not properly stabilize those long bullets.

Not knowing your tolerances, have you developed a slight flinch? How much parallax does your reticle have at the distance you were shooting. Vanguards are light and kick like mules if they don't fit.
Click to expand...

I definitely wasn't going to attempt 200+ grain bullets in a slower than 10 twist barrel.

I did bed the lug on this one, and the last VG , this one I did right off the hop so nothing to compare to.

I may look at just floating the barrel also and eliminate the pressure point all together.

As for flinch, I took out my 338 LM to try at distance, it's obnoxious , I was doing a true MOA at 500 with it with just playing around.

These particular two rifles maybe just don't like the boat tail bullets, I may try some flat base bullets also but not before trying different powders, I'll try the 7828 and Retumbo next as that is what I have on hand.
 
Your shots with the 190 gr. ABLR are all over the place. However, with the 212 ELD-X, there is a cluster of 4 shots, made up of the 72, 73, 74.5 and 76 gr. loads. Looking at your velocity readings, three of those 4 had very similar velocities. The 76 gr. load is the exception, although it is not too far off.

The question is why are you getting such erratic velocities? Possibilities: contaminated powder, scale gives inconsistent readings (I know you checked it out), wrong choice of powder (too slow a burn rate), inconsistent or weak primers, bedding issue. As to the latter, it would affect POI, not velocities.

OTOH, your stated velocities are on the low side for a 300WM. I personnally shoot a 300H&H and I get about 2850 FPS with a 200 grain Accubond, with IMR7828. Maybe it is time to try a new powder! Have you tried good old IMR 7828SSC?
 
I think maybe I should try the 212 ladder again and see what I get, the chrony could of been effected by, something.Those numbers just don't seem legit to me.

Could go with 7828, H1000 and retumbo to see what happens.
 
KT, thank you for helping me with 7-08
hopefully this graph will help you.
Capture.jpg
seems to me, there might be an issue with your chronograph, at 73 grain, the velocity dropped too much, the ES of LRAB at 75 grain is pretty high, it's over 100fps.
nevertheless, the ELD-X at 74 seems like a good node, stable velocity +/-0.5 grain.
 

Attachments

  • Capture.jpg
    Capture.jpg
    19.4 KB · Views: 168
xingyc said:
KT, thank you for helping me with 7-08
hopefully this graph will help you.
View attachment 302331
seems to me, there might be an issue with your chronograph, at 73 grain, the velocity dropped too much, the ES of LRAB at 75 grain is pretty high, it's over 100fps.
nevertheless, the ELD-X at 74 seems like a good node, stable velocity +/-0.5 grain.
Click to expand...

Awesome graph, thank you for that!

The gadgets we have are an awesome tool until they don't work.(chrono not your spread sheet) ;)

I'd of been better of without this last session and just picked a few nodes/loads to try then test velocity, but now that you mention it when I was out on the weekend and shot my 25/06 thought it , confirmed load at 3700+ ft/sec , it was through a couple times at 3400 and back to 3700 , so I am seeing an issue now with the chronograph maybe.
 
KT, it sounds like you've got a handle on things and it slipped my mind that you were shooting 300Win Mag, not 300 Weatherby Mag. My bad. The 300 Weatherby Mag rifles do come with 1-12 twist rates.

I like the way you're approaching this issue and agree that pressure point may be part or all of your problem.

I've tagged this for interest as a Vanguard S2, chambered in 270 Winchester just came to me with similar issues.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom