New Reloader .40S&W. OK to proceed with powder?

[Scooter Money]

This is my first set-up at reloading. I shoot an M&P .40 Pro with a 5" barrel.
After mounting the new press (Dillon 550) on a desk, tinkering and setting up (Hornady dies), I think I am ready to start loading powder.
Powder: Titegroup (Starting at 4.2gn, as per Hodgdon Website)
Primers: Winchester Small Pistol.
Cases: Cleaned CCI and Speer from the range that I shot myself.
Bullets: Cam Pro 180gn Round Nose (from http://www.shooterready.ca/).
I find pretty much everything to be straight forward, but the case space and crimping I'm not too sure about.
Would the empty space in the case change much if I used the same OAL (1.125") between a 180gn RN and TC bullet?? Would it matter much in regards to case pressure?
Hodgdon Website suggests an OAL of 1.125".


I crimped to .419" dia. They will not fit in the test gauge with out this crimp. Double checked about 15 empty rounds in the gauge and barrel and they seat without dragging.

The plan is to crank out 50 to 100 rounds and test these settings this weekend. These will be practice rounds at the range eventually (hopefully) working my way to a Black Badge/Competiton.
Thanks!

 

[tictactician]

you might be a bit heavy on the crimp. The plated bullets are softer than jacketed and you don't want to crimp so much that you under size the bullet for your barrel.
Pull a bullet and check the diameter. If you can feel a ring you are probably too heavy. If you measure less than. 401 you may have some accuracy impacts. They will likely cycle fine but may not group very well. I believe the SAMMI max is. 423 for 40 S&W.
As far as CAOL goes you need to figure out what works best for your magazine and pistol combination. I would suggest you figure that out first. I would not go below the published COAL you may be able to go a little longer as long as you magazine and barrel function reliably.

 

[sunray]

I think you're overthinking it. A .40 S&W uses a taper crimp, just like any other case that headspaces on the case mouth(rimless pistol cases like the .45 and 9mm). There's no need or actual measurement other than just enough to hold the bullet in place. Eye ball it to about 1/32"(you'll see a wee, tiny, shiney, tapered ring on the case mouth.) and use the pistol's chamber as the gauge. The loaded round should sit flush with the back of the chamber. The chamber is the best gauge you can get.
Don't worry about space left in the case. It doesn't matter.
A 180 is a 180. It's shape doesn't matter either. The only bullet shape than might give you grief is an SWC and they're not a big deal to get to feed reliably in most pistols. Feed ramp gets extended up the sides of the chamber if it's not already. Most come that way these days.
You will need and want to work up the load though. Starting at the 4.2, load 5(a mag load for a rifle) and go up by .1 to the max load of 4.7. Keep em' separate. Factory boxes are good for that. Then go shooting, off a solid rest, at 25 yards, for a group only. When you have a group, you adjust the sights and go practice drawing and dry firing for sight picture and trigger control.

 

[tictactician]

why eyeball it when the OP obviously has a set of calipers?
I would agree that the barrel removed from the pistol is a good check for sizing.
I would disagree that all 180 grain are equal. I just measured a Cam-pro 180 TC and the bullet length is.578 measure a Berry's 180 RN and the length is. 597. Since both bullets have a flat bottom is you load them to the same COAL the RN load has. 02 more bullet in the case. If you load the same amount of powder the RN round is likely to be a higher pressure loading due to the reduced case capacity. Not all bullets are the same for a given weight! The profile makes a difference!! Space in the case is very important. A little bullet setback can ruin your day. My 40 loads have a bit of a waist where you can actually be see where the bullet points ends in the case. From what I have read the waist is what helps prevent bullet setback. The crimp plays a minor roll in preventing setback in auto pistol cartridges.

 

[Spawn-Inc]

why eyeball it when the OP obviously has a set of calipers?
I would agree that the barrel removed from the pistol is a good check for sizing.
I would disagree that all 180 grain are equal. I just measured a Cam-pro 180 TC and the bullet length is.578 measure a Berry's 180 RN and the length is. 597. Since both bullets have a flat bottom is you load them to the same COAL the RN load has. 02 more bullet in the case. If you load the same amount of powder the RN round is likely to be a higher pressure loading due to the reduced case capacity. Not all bullets are the same for a given weight! The profile makes a difference!! Space in the case is very important. A little bullet setback can ruin your day. My 40 loads have a bit of a waist where you can actually be see where the bullet points ends in the case. From what I have read the waist is what helps prevent bullet setback. The crimp plays a minor roll in preventing setback in auto pistol cartridges.

yes there are differences between various bullets of the same weight, but if you seat them with the longest OAL that will reliable feed and fit your mag/chamber and use the starting load you likely won't have issues.

 

[Ganderite]

An OAL of 1.125" is what i use. I have a number of pistols and that size seems to work well in all of them.

The crimp does not have to be much more than enough to remove the mouth flare.

If this is your first loading attempt, I suggest you load 20 of 3.5, 3.8, 4.1, 4.4 & 4.8

Most of my pistols are best with 3.5 or 3.8. Start low and work up. Find out what shoots most accurately and cycles the action.

 

[Scooter Money]

Awesome! Thanks everyone for your input!! I was concerned about reading that the .40 is a "high-pressure" cartridge and wondering what I was doing was a safe starting point. Lots of variables to deal with but more comfortable now on what's most important. Probably still will take an extra pair of shorts to the range, just in case! Thanks again.

 

[Ganderite]

Awesome! Thanks everyone for your input!! I was concerned about reading that the .40 is a "high-pressure" cartridge and wondering what I was doing was a safe starting point. Lots of variables to deal with but more comfortable now on what's most important. Probably still will take an extra pair of shorts to the range, just in case! Thanks again.

Let us know how it went. we can learn from your experience.

 

[kb007]

Don't forget the Dillon bells the case on the powder step (if you ran thru the whole cycle just without powder in the hopper). Your seating die may or may not crimp, so with little or no crimp the case still has the bell in it and won't fit in anything. I put a light crimp on my 40SW using Hdy die and they work nicely.

 

[pilgrim]

just tried my new STI Edge in .40

bullet CamPro180 TMJ FP (plated)
primer CCI SPP
powder Titegroup

since most STI/SVI guns load reliably at CAOL at 1.175-1.180, I loaded 35 round at 1.180 with 7 different powder loads......great results, now need to adjust the CAOL

the results (bullet velosity were aquired via Chono, average of 5 rounds fired, PF calculated based on the weight of the bullet: 180gr):

4.2 - 844FPS - 152PF
4.3 - 855FPS - 154PF
4.4 - 861FPS - 155PF
4.5 - 872FPS - 157PF
4.6 - 894FPS - 161PF
4.7 - 933FPS - 168PF
4.8 - 950FPS - 171PF

Major PF met at 4.8gr of Titegroup, BUT the CAOL was 1.180 (compared to 1.135 per THE BOOK), now will play with the CAOL at 4.7-4.8 to get at least 176PF )))

the biggest relief - recoil is not bad, as expected (compared to the BDX ammo)

will keep posting the results.....

 

[Scooter Money]

I put a light crimp on my 40SW using Hdy die and they work nicely.

My final die is a Lee die for the taper crimp. I found it difficult setting the Hdy bullet seater/crimp die positions at one station

just tried my new STI Edge in .40

bullet CamPro180 TMJ FP (plated)
primer CCI SPP
powder Titegroup

since most STI/SVI guns load reliably at CAOL at 1.175-1.180, I loaded 35 round at 1.180 with 7 different powder loads......great results, now need to adjust the CAOL

the results (bullet velosity were aquired via Chono, average of 5 rounds fired, PF calculated based on the weight of the bullet: 180gr):

4.2 - 844FPS - 152PF
4.3 - 855FPS - 154PF
4.4 - 861FPS - 155PF
4.5 - 872FPS - 157PF
4.6 - 894FPS - 161PF
4.7 - 933FPS - 168PF
4.8 - 950FPS - 171PF

Major PF met at 4.8gr of Titegroup, BUT the CAOL was 1.180 (compared to 1.135 per THE BOOK), now will play with the CAOL at 4.7-4.8 to get at least 176PF )))

the biggest relief - recoil is not bad, as expected (compared to the BDX ammo)

will keep posting the results.....

I will let you know as I try out my first results, hoping this weekend. I will be going to the range anyway on Saturday for this :
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1093774-Sig-Sauer-Range-Day!

Thanks again, you guys rock! Thanks Pilgrim!

 

[BCRider]

If working near the max loads for powder watch the OAL. There's not a lot of volume in the .40S&W case so moving the bullet .010 to .015 makes a pretty large difference in the case volume and thus the peak pressure.

When I was working with my 9mm loads and trying different OAL's with a set charge weight I found that .010 change gave me roughly a 50 to 70fps velocity difference over the chrono. And that's significant. Especially since it's an exponential rise as the volume is reduced. That's why any serious bullet setback in the rounds in the magazine can be so dangerous.

A way to check if your crimp is firm enough without being too much is to purposely crimp 3 or 4 to what you consider to be a little loose. Load them first, then load regular firmer crimped loads on top. Fire off only the first firmer crimped rounds then remove and measure the test rounds to see if they became shorter from the recoil and hammering from the first shots.

An inertia bullet puller will quickly remove them so you can test the next firmer crimp.

If you're worried about accidentally firing off a set back bullet if you lose count then simply load it with powder and bullet over a spent primer. It's not that hard to remove the ejector pin from the sizing die for stuff like this. For a test of this sort you don't really need powder either. But you need to size, flare and crimp as though they are proper loads so the bullet sees the correct crimp.

And needless to say you want to run the crimp a few thou tighter than the one that actually produces some setback.

Me? I've not got around to anything this fancy. Instead I look for a slight tapering that is visible to the eye and a slight but noticeable indent on the bullet ahead of the casing mouth. It's worked well so far. But I like the idea of actually measuring and recording the final mouth diameter of the crimp lip so I've got something to go by for the future.

 

[pilgrim]

OK, came back from the range with some strange results.....

loaded several sets of .40 (see above): 4.7gr of TG and 1.160, 1.165, 1.170 and 1.175

chrono gave the almost the same velocity for all 4 sets..... strange, but looks like at longer CAOL sitting depth doesn`t play a significant role.......

can somebody with more experience comment on this thanks

 

[tictactician]

I have had similar results to what pilgram found when using WST powder. 5 grains turns out almost identical velocity from 1.145 COAL all the way up 1.2 COAL for the same bullet. As soon as went shorter than 1.145 the velocity stared to climb. Must be that the powder characteristics.
Bullet setback in the magazine is not as common as setback caused by the bullet hitting the feed ramp as the round is fed into the chamber.

 

[Scooter Money]

Perfect Results

Let us know how it went. we can learn from your experience.

Thanks Ganderite for the suggested starting loads.
With a few rejected loads that I caught with double checking everything, it took a long time to put out 100 rounds. With stopping and measuring everything meant that the progress was slow and messing up one thing would affect another on a progressive press.
I went to the range on Saturday and had a great day. Here is what I started with:

What I was familiar with was shooting the 180gn Speer Lawman, so I took a few boxes of that to the range. I wanted to do a back-to-back comparison to what I was used to vs the new loads. I shot 1 mag of Lawman then 1 mag of the reloads starting at the weakest load and continued alternating.

The M&P felt like a totally different pistol. Sounded like everyone else's gun at the range (most of them shoot 9mm) that I routinely shoot with. Recoil was more manageable, with much less dipping with my flinching. The groups were meh but they never went below the horizontal point of what I was aiming at (I frequently shoot at 8 o'clock if I lose focus) .
As I got closer to the max load, the recoil got increased, but nowhere near the Lawman's and still more comfortable to shoot. My forearms aren't as sore today as after a regular shooting session. I ended up shooting the remaining Lawman at some steel, which was fun. Overall, shot 100 reloads with perfect cycling without any FTF, FTE, and another 250 Lawman. Comparison of the casings seems that the Lawman is more cleaner-burning than the Tightgroup. The end of the barrel has more soot too. Overall-Success!! Thanks everyone with your feedback. Next challenge: Reload 300 rounds (probably @ 3.8gn) for practice next range night.
See 'ya!