New rifle accuracy problems! HELP!

mackinsaw

mackinsaw

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Hey guys, I'm looking for some help before I loose my mind here! I'm new to this whole thing so I apreciate your time to read this and offer any bit of advice! I just bought my very first brand new hunting rifle, a brand new Browning X bolt 30-06 and topped it with a Vortex 4-12x44 scope. I looked at a bunch of different rifles in the store and fell inlove with this one. The Tikka T3 and Savage 11/111 (I think) were the competition though. I didn't know anything about a break in procedure for the barrel before I first took it out to shoot it, and it didn't say a word about it in the little booklet about the X bolt. The first time I took it out a few days ago I did the initial cleaning with that cheap nitro bore cleaner and some patches and only had cheap Federal power shok 150 and 180 grain and shot about 14 rounds through it, shooting 3 round groups slowly with enough time in between to let the barrel cool down and figured out it really liked those 150 grain rounds and didn't like the 180's as much. On the 7th-9th shots I had a group under 1 inch at 75 yards and I was impressed. After that I shot a few 180's which kinda scattered than shot 1 150 that was about 1/4 inch off the bullseye so I put er away. That night I gave it a few passes with that nitro crap and a bore brush and some patches and cleaned it up.


The next day I picked up a box of core lokt remington 150's and some Winchester power point 180's and took the federals too. My first shot at 115 yards I was about 1/2 inch off the bullseye so I switched up the ammo to try the other cheapy stuff out and was getting random patterens around 3-5 inches and wasn't happy with it. I then switched back to the Federal 150's that were shooting great the day before (after about 20 something rounds) and then I couldn't get a decent patteren with them either?! I was pretty positive I wasn't developing a flinch because I was shooting .22 in between groupings and practicing technique to let the barrel cool down, and this X bolt shoots like a pussy cat! I was also letting the barrel cool down untill it was hardly warm to the touch. I put about 30 rounds through it that day. That night I was looking down the barrel after trying to clean the $*** out of it and using a flashlight I could see the face of the lands on the rifling looked as if they were made out of cooper. I used patched wrapped around a brass brushed and soaked them in nitro and tryed to scrub the nuts out of it but it didn't even TOUCH the copper. (I could only see a few inchs down the barrel using the light pointed different ways because if I shine the light down the other end of the barrel you can't tell the colour difference of the copper spots, so I don't actually know how much copper is built up further down).


I then decided I needed some better cleaner to remove the copper fouling so I went to the local store here and they said the best stuff they have is wipe out so I picked some up. It says a few application may be needed on the can to get rid of stubborn fouling the first time, but I didn't think mine could be that bad to need it being that its a brand new rifle. So after the first cleaning with that stuff I could still see copper on the face of the rifling but figured I didn't want to over do it. So I went out today and I still couldn't get the federal 150's to work for me and everything else I put through it was just putting random holes all around my targets, generally about 4-7inch groups, each ammo brand having a tendency to go abit different direction. I shot about 30 rounds today untill I was so frusterated I wanted to grab that rifle and axe chop my target board down. Today I was shooting prone with sandbags and really focusing hard. There was so many shots I was so focused when that sucker let that round go I would bet my nuts that crosshair wasn't even a pube off. I have handled that thing better than i would a human baby since I brang it home so I know the scope hasn't been knocked and sent off.


All the guys I know around here (mostly old timers) shoot for fun mainly just to plink and hunt tell me there is absolutly no point cleaning the barrel after each shooting session, or barrel break in procedures are crap, and that they just shoot the cheap stuff and it works just fine. These are the same guys that have trouble keeping their shots in the round part of the targets, let alone get anything resembling a grouping at the range, so I really don't know wether they are just lousy shots or if their dirty rifle is to blame. I have been shooting since an early age and have had marksmanship training through the canadian forces and consider myself a half decent shot. Shooting off the sandbags today from prone I figured human error wouldn't be a big factor but I haven't had anyone around lately whos a better shot than me to test this theory out.


Can the cheap ammo really affect the accuracy that bad even at 100 yards?! Should I try better quality ammo? Did I totally screw the barrel by not following a break in procedure, even though it doesn't mention it in the owners manual? Should I have cleaned the bore untill there was NO copper visible? Can you guys see the colour difference of the copper fouling beyond a few inches down the barrel or am I blind? How often should I clean the barrel thoroughly? I absolutly love everything about this rifle especially after I had some good luck with it accuracy wise but I'm now begining to wonder if I should've spent the 1300$ on it or just bought the savage.. I'm sure this rifle will be amazing once I figure it out but I just need some help getting it worked out. Thanks for your time for those of you who actually read my novel here..
 
I had a brand new Savage Model 12 VLP in .223. I bought a box of bulk federal FMJ's for it to dink around with, and to use the spent brass for reloading. However, I ended up selling half of the box to a fellow gun nut because i couldn't get a group to save my life with those FMJ's. Once i started to reload some winchester cases with various bullets and weights my grouping shrunk considerably.

As for cleaning your gun every time, its not necessary. Just the first few times out you should clean it, even clean it before you shoot it, just to get all of that shipping grease out of it. Let the gun tell you when it needs to be cleaned, as your groups open up it is then time to clean.

Check and double check all of your scope mounting screws even the bases. I had a couple screws back out on my rifle and it almost came off of the gun. Put some medium loctite on the screws just to keep them snug. Next remove the scope and use a piece of dowelling with some sandpaper to align hone your scope rings when they are mounted on the gun. If there is a burr on one of the rings it could cause the scope to shift.

One more thing to check is to make sure the barrel is not hitting the stock, if its free-floated. Make sure the stock is tight too.

I hope this helps, these are just some of the problem that I have encountered over the years.

Good Shooting and keep them in the X ring!
 
From what you are saying sounds like she has a fouled barrel...Not all barrels are created equal and this one sounds like it fouls fast...This rig fouled so quickly that it never gave you a chance to find out much about her, accuracy wise...Makes it tough to work with.
I would get all the copper fouling out with a good ammonia based cleaner like Sweets 7.62 using a wire brush to expedite things. Once you have all the copper out, follow a barrel break in procedure and hope she smooths out inside the bore so it won't foul so fast.
Some barrels go many shots before accuracy declines due to fouling...Some even after break in foul with few shots.
I have a .270 that shoots around a half inch untill approx 20 rounds have been shot then she opens up over 2-3 inches...Get the copper out and she's right back down to a half inch again...Good Luck.
 
^ Good advise
Factory barrels are always a crapshoot,just clean em when they don't shoot .
Get some agressive bore cleaner get some synthetic bore brushes to use with it.
You know your barrel is clean when wet patched don't show any blue/green (copper residue).
 
One other question I have is the technique for shooting. All else being equal, was your shooting technique the same for all the shooting? In other words, was the rifle resting in the same manner throughout.

For testing the accuracy of any of my rifles, I prefer to use a sturdy bipod or benchrest either on a sled or a firm rest on the forestock and on the heal of the buttstock. That way, there is minimal opportunities for error due to shooting positions/flinch, breathing, etc. I use this to solely test the accuracy potential of the rifle. It also allows me to verify if there is some issues or pressure on the barrel by the behavior of the patterns.

Of course, the scope, even brand new, can also be a bit of a culprit as well. I had one installed at the store and they did not secure it very tight and that was enough to throw things off. When it really got bad, that was when I discovered the ring mounting screw was loosening more with every shot. I also had a brand new Vortex go to hell aft two range sessions. The store replaced it under warranty. My accuracy problems were solved.
 
Make sure scope bases and rings are tight.

Buy three quality boxes of ammo, use a solid rest/bags/gun vise, shoot 5 shot groups at 100 yards with time between each round to cool barrel. Select the most accurate load, group should be well under 2in.

Sight the gun in deadnuts for that load. Leave the barrel alone, do not clean it, go buy two more boxes of that ammo - forget about all other ammo.

Shoot straight, have fun, go hunting, kill and grill.
 
My model 70 I got at christmas time Is an interesting one as well. Shoots hornady superformance 165gr sst 3 shots touching at 100 for part of a box then opens up. Federal vital shock ammo shoots 4-5" 3 shot groups at best. And thats off a front rest and read bag. I started reloading for it in a hurry. It shoots 150 and 165gr bullets real good but likes to be clean. Once there is 40-50 rounds it opens up by a noticeable amount. I clean it when I get home down to bare metal and its all good again with the same reloads. For cleaner I found that Otis carbon remover and copper remover work very good and very quickly. I have tried mpro7 and hoppes 9 and those didnt make a dent in the fouling. It is getting better now the more I shoot it and cleans up alot easier now as well.
 
First thing MAKE SURE THE ACTION SCREWS AND SCOPEMOUNTS AND BASES ARE TIGHT. Next use your wipe out again until the barrell is actually clean and free of copper. A barrel break in procedure isnt nessisary, but it can help your barrel to stay clean longer. If all your screws are tight I would bet your problem is copper fouling. Someone else on here already said not all barrels are created equal and its true. Some barrels foul quickly and some dont. If the cheap federal ammo was shooting good at the begining, then use that first after you clean you barrel properly.
 
My browning needs a clean barrel if I want any kind of groups out of it too. I've had the gun for +25 years and that's just the way she is.
 
Thanks guys I apreciate it, I checked the mounting screws again for the scope and action myself and all seemed good, I was there watching like a hawk when they tourqed the scope screws down and they used and electric torque handle and triple checked each screw. I'm going to do a serious bore cleaning untill I can't see any more copper and then take it out tomorrow or this weekend with some Hornady Superformance GMX 165 grains and see how it does. I just spoke with the guys at the gun store and they said they've bought alot of rifles in the last few years and they've rarely been super impressed with their rifles the first few times out untill they figure them out. They also said sometimes they've had to do a few rounds of wipeout before it'd fully clean their barrels and even leave it in there overnight to fully penerate.


As for shooting technique, after the first few groupings were crap yesterday I started to really focus on keeping the exact same shooting position and didn't help me one bit. Hopefully some better quality ammo will solve this problem.
 
All of my new rifles are cleaned before being shot and it sounds like you did that. I also clean after every shot for the first ten ( time consuming I know). I aim these ten rounds at the same target BUT I really don't get worked up over the size of the group. I then shoot groups of three with a cleaning between each until I have shot a box and a half or so. After that I clean whenever I notice accuracy dropping off. Some say breaking a new rifle in is a waste of time but I figure it certainly can't hurt and it has served me well. I generally see the groups get tighter after 20 or so rounds when done this way. Admittedly I have also done this to a couple of rifles and really didn't notice a difference at all so who knows?
 
The fouling actually may have little to do with the poor accuracy.

Check the stock screws to make sure they are tightened to proper torque, on three occasions recently i have seen browning rifles (two of them bought at the same time by a father and son duo) have loose screws from the factory. In the first outing groups were good like in your case, then they went to sxxt!

Once the screws were tightened the rifles shot quite decent (not as good as my tikka though)
 
all great ideas here, but dont forget to check your paralax adjustment on your Vortex 4-12x44 scope. You didnt mention anything about it in your first post. Do you have a parlax adjustment on your scope? If this is out of wack, then you will be shooting all over the map! I know for me, when shooting out past 400, then back down to 100 yards, if I forget to adjust the paralax, then my groups are way out. Just another thought.
 
Thanks for the help guys, hopefully I'll get out tomrrow and try it out. Ive cleaned it out 3 times with the wipeoput and still got blue and green on the patches on the 3rd time, should I give it one more round of wipeout? I checked the scope mount screws and they all seem to be tight still, they were pretty meticulace about the torquing procedure at the gun store to. I just felt the action screws and they seemed pretty tight, I could only get em to go about an 1/8th of a turn, I would deffinently say they were not loose. What is a paralax adjustment? All I know I have is focus, zoom, elevation and windage? I also bought some Hornady GMX 165 grains so we'll see how well they group, I'm hoping extremly well considering that it was 50 bucks a box..
 
Myself I find Federal ammunition very finicky. I have had great experiences with thier factory 150 grain FMJs and 125 grain SPs out of my Voere 30-06. However I was recently gifted 222 Remington of Federal blue box brand. That stuff was cr@p and my 788 shot them at around 2 1/2s at 100 meters from off of a bench no less.
 
I bought a brand new tikka t3 laminated stainless and it wouldn't group 1" moa like the guarantee said, so I sent it back to stoeger Canada and they confirmed it wouldn't meet the 1" moa guarantee. So they were going to send me a replacement but instead I decided to upgrade to a sako finnlight! Rifle looks and feels great but I haven't had the time to shoot it yet. Sako comes with a 5-shot 1" moa guarantee and the tikka came with a 3-shot moa guarentee so we'll see what happens!
 
Man, good on you for having patience up until this point. If it does turn out to be a problem with the firearm that's absolutely ridiculous. I would have called browning long ago and tried to work something out. Paying that much money these days for a gun that can't shoot 1 or at very least 1.5 - 2 MOA reliably is sub-par in my opinion. If savage can do it for $350 there is something funny going on here. And I know that has nothing to do with trim or finish, but still. You might have just gotten a lemon. I know that sometimes the bits they use to cut or rifle or whatever can get fatigued, if your rifle was one that was built right before new cutting tools were swapped in the quality could very well be sub-par.
 
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