uncledillers
Regular
- Location
- Comox Valley
They are not replacing those rifles, I believe these will be just a new tool in the sniper shed. More of a replacement for the Armalite AR-10T.
New rifles delivered for Canadian Forces sniper teams
- Thread starter Big Bad
- Start date
They are not replacing those rifles, I believe these will be just a new tool in the sniper shed. More of a replacement for the Armalite AR-10T.
Who says they are getting rid of their bolt guns?
The article states that these rifles will play an auxiliary role in sniper teams. I don't foresee boltguns going away as the primary weapon for sniper teams, semi's usually play a niche role.
I actually happen to own a C20, or at least the closest that any of us are likely to get to one - the original, monolithic upper-receiver Colt USA LE901 Gen 1 in .308. Mine is a sub-MOA performer out to 800m with 175gr FGMM firing SMKs, however I can't speak to extended ranges as I was never able to shoot it past 800m before the OIC hit. There is nothing that my bolt-action .308 CADEX Guardian Lite can do that the LE 901 can't equal, and that is a fact witnessed (and fired) by the proprietor of Sierra 64 Riflecraft here in Edmonton, a retired CAF Master Sniper. There is absolutely no reason for the C20 to be relegated to relatively short-range "DMR" use, aside from the inherent limitations of the .308 cartridge. Manufacture the C20 in 6.5mm and then you'd have a Semi-Auto Sniper System (SASS) capable of accurately reaching out beyond 1200m (at which point the comparatively feeble .308 is already sub-sonic). The only reason that the Timberwolf would be used in preference to the C20 is the additional range offered by the former's .338 Lapua Magnum chambering. All other things (including inherent accuracy) being the same, who wouldn't rather have the quick follow-up shots and positional stability offered by a semi-automatic rather than a clunky bolt-action? Seriously....
Our current generation of snipers quite dislike the Timberwolf and readily admit that it was a huge mistake to purchase what amounts to a custom precision rifle where a field-serviceable sniper rifle such as the Accuracy International was available instead. It was a poorly-written Statement Of Requirements with over-emphasis on accuracy above all-else and a hefty favouratism towards the home-team that got the CAF sniper community saddled with the Timberwolf. I have spoken with a healthy cross-section of current-serving snipers from the 1st and 3rd Battalions of the PPCLI over the past 2 years and all have nothing much positive to say about the Timberwolf aside from its accuracy when initially factory-tuned.
Not sure where some of you guys are getting your info, but my understanding is that the C20 is intended for exclusive sniper use, and will NOT be fielded as a DMR or "Sharpshooter" rifle. That said, the contract does seem to acquire enough C20s to distribute down to the Section level within the Reg F Canadian infantry, so I suppose the truth may lie somewhere in the middle. Perhaps they will actually deploy DMRs at the Platoon or Section level within the Canadian infantry at long last. It is an idea who time has certainly come were it not for inadequate funding typically dictating Canadian Army doctrine....
Oh, BTW - my "C20" cost me ~$2500 CAD NIB retail, so nothing close to the $24K "government" cost of the C20. Perhaps I should be doing CAF procurement! Anyhow, here's a photo - note the offset Front Take-Down Pin which is required to accomodate the Magazine-Well Sleeve that down-sizes the magazine well to 5.56mm dimensions, allowing a 5.56mm Upper to be run on the otherwise .308 Lower Receiver. Quite an ingenious and elegant solution to making the LE901/C20 Lower Receiver switch-caliber.
Our current generation of snipers quite dislike the Timberwolf and readily admit that it was a huge mistake to purchase what amounts to a custom precision rifle where a field-serviceable sniper rifle such as the Accuracy International was available instead. It was a poorly-written Statement Of Requirements with over-emphasis on accuracy above all-else and a hefty favouratism towards the home-team that got the CAF sniper community saddled with the Timberwolf. I have spoken with a healthy cross-section of current-serving snipers from the 1st and 3rd Battalions of the PPCLI over the past 2 years and all have nothing much positive to say about the Timberwolf aside from its accuracy when initially factory-tuned.
Not sure where some of you guys are getting your info, but my understanding is that the C20 is intended for exclusive sniper use, and will NOT be fielded as a DMR or "Sharpshooter" rifle. That said, the contract does seem to acquire enough C20s to distribute down to the Section level within the Reg F Canadian infantry, so I suppose the truth may lie somewhere in the middle. Perhaps they will actually deploy DMRs at the Platoon or Section level within the Canadian infantry at long last. It is an idea who time has certainly come were it not for inadequate funding typically dictating Canadian Army doctrine....
Oh, BTW - my "C20" cost me ~$2500 CAD NIB retail, so nothing close to the $24K "government" cost of the C20. Perhaps I should be doing CAF procurement! Anyhow, here's a photo - note the offset Front Take-Down Pin which is required to accomodate the Magazine-Well Sleeve that down-sizes the magazine well to 5.56mm dimensions, allowing a 5.56mm Upper to be run on the otherwise .308 Lower Receiver. Quite an ingenious and elegant solution to making the LE901/C20 Lower Receiver switch-caliber.
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- Location
- Comox Valley
That looks designed to snipe the largest number of legal gun owners in the shortest amount of time!!
Every component on an ar10 c7, c8 can be changed out by a monkey with a handful of cheap tools with perhaps the exception of the barrel extension
I have assembled more than a few AR’s in my time from bits and none required any expertise- I am evidence of that!
WTF?
The trope of semis not being accurate is dead man.
Tons of semi auto platforms out there that are capable of half minute or better.
Acceptance criteria for a PSG-1 was 1 minute of angle... at 300 meters for 100 rounds on commercial ammo. And that's in the 1980's.
mine was half minute on hand loads, and I think all in I was 3 grand give or take. Not that I couldn't have done better with a bolt gun for the same money, probably could have. But I've done enough long range work to know that at 1000m the difference between a 1.5 minute gun and a 0.25 minute gun is pretty much a rounding error compared to your ability to range and call wind, or the caliber, or or or. Many factors.
Appreciate your candor on it tho. Hopefully this all blows over and down the road the semis end up being cheaper than the bolts per MOA accuracy.
There was probably $3000 worth of form filling and costs per rifle just to get in on the bid. That's got to be recouped.
Expecting anything that is bought by the government to represent 'fair value' is never going to happen.
blasted_saber
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- A blue part of Ontario
I dont really care about the price. Its small potatoes if our soldiers have a platform they like and serves them well. Im very happy to see investment in our military. We're hardly talking about some outrageous number here.
And to be honest, $24K for a rifles lifetime really doesnt even sound that bad.
And to be honest, $24K for a rifles lifetime really doesnt even sound that bad.
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Bolt guns will likely remain in the bigger calibers like 338 and 50.....where very long range and or hard targets are the mission.
I expect the 308 or whatever variant in that horsepower becomes the norm will be semis....as they should be
Semi's are harder to shoot, more unreliable, and require more maintenance. Distance gives you time and opportunity, and for that a semi isn't really required. On top of that, for longer shots you have to wait to see where the bullet hits before making a follow up shot, completely taking away the advantage semi's have over bolt guns.
For certain applications, semi's make sense. But I don't foresee semi's replacing bolt guns as the primary rifles for most sniper units.
If this was the case, we would see a lot more sniper units using semi's in a primary role.
A friend mentioned to this me and I insisted he was referring to the US military with there I believe it's called MK113, might be wrong on the number. But sure behold we googled it and Canada is going semi auto. Not smart in my opinion. Works for urban warfare I imagine. But I'm sure smarter people then me made this decision....
There's a few reasons why most military sniper units have bolt guns as their primary weapons.
Semi's have their place. But so do bolt guns.
