Hello All, got a new beretta 92 Vertec. It is Deadly accurate with the Crimsin tace lasers. Without. Not so much. I mus tmake it known i am a new and young Shooter. I have Just started working on stance and Practiced dry firing and i found alot of things i was doing wrong like trigger pull(have not been to the range since finding this out). shot 50 rounds with only about 10 on target whatsoever (forget grouping) mine seem to go low and right since i am a lefty. Just wondering tips, advice on how to look down the sights n such Anything that might help me improve.
New Shooter Blues
- Thread starter shootitup
- Start date
If you're shooting better with the Crimson Trace laser than you are with your irons, there's something up with your iron sight picture. Usually, a lousy shot with iron sights will still be a lousy shot with a laser. You're great with the laser, but lousy with the irons, so you're doing something right. 
The sights on a Vertec are not the most refined or condusive to good grouping...you might want to swap out the OEM irons for something better....Heinies or Novak.
The sights on a Vertec are not the most refined or condusive to good grouping...you might want to swap out the OEM irons for something better....Heinies or Novak.
shootitup said:
Depends on the factory sights and the person who owns the gun. You don't necessarily have to change the factory sights if you like them but you may have to adjust them. Have you tried shooting off a rest or sandbags with the iron sights to see if they are 'on target'?
I'd get someone who is an experienced and good shot to try the gun first and see how and where it groups for them. If it still goes where it does for you, then the sights need adjusting. No offense, but there's a lot of things to learn in shooting a centrefire handgun well, and adjusting the sights to compensate for what could be a problem with the way you shoot is not the right way to fix things. I know that when I started I did a lot of things wrong. I couldn't call my shots, because I either anticiapted the shot and mashed the trigger at the last second ("now!"-ing the shot), and/or didn't keep my eye fixed on the front sight, and so on.
Do you get a surprise break (i.e. you don't anticipate the gun going off and it comes as a bit of a surprise)? Can you see the front sight all the way through the shot and see it jump when the gun goes off, so you know pretty well where the shot went?
Do you get a surprise break (i.e. you don't anticipate the gun going off and it comes as a bit of a surprise)? Can you see the front sight all the way through the shot and see it jump when the gun goes off, so you know pretty well where the shot went?
Wow thanks Ed, Good info!, Im not gettin any surprise breaks, the gun has a very nice smooth trigger so thank god for that. i did do alot of dry firing this weekend and found that when i pulled the trigger i was not pulling evenly and "twisting" to the right. I fully admit i have not paid enough attention to the front sight i wa smore trying to get all the sights in my vision at once, I hope to see if the combination of all the new things ive found out will help me this weekend. Also i agree a person is the best teacher my next door neighbour is a expert and also a family friend but he's busy so i try to find as much info as possible w.o bothering others. May i ask how you pull the trigger do you use the tip of the finger? or have you finger slightly wrapped around the trigger
I use the fleshy part of the finger tip, although it's not a requirement. Some shooters use the first knuckle area to get more "feel" since there isn't the flesh there to mush, but unless you're a very confident shooter that's just going to work against you at this point.
As a new shooter, the important thing is to learn to get that surprise break -- to not anticipate the gun going off. If you anticipate the shot, your subconscious will do some kind of rapid muscle twitch (usually combined with a mashing of the trigger at the last second) that throws the shot off. The classic flinch is where it tries to prevent the recoil by timing a pulling down of the front sight with the mashing of the trigger. For a leftie, this results in shots going down and to the right. Since it's coming from your subconscious, you can't consciously stop this (your subconscious is waaaay faster than your conscious mind). If you pay attention to your emotions while you shoot, you can feel the anticipation that makes this happen.
You can learn to not anticipate the shot. With practice, you can learn to not anticipate the shot even when you shoot very, very quickly. Consciously, you end up just not caring about the fact that the gun is going off because you're mentally (and visually) focused on the sights and nothing else (including your trigger finger) matters much. Firing the gun just happens.
First things first, though. Use dry fire practice to get used to breaking the shot without disturbing the sights. This also teaches/tricks your subconscious into not associating the break of the shot with recoil.
In the dry fire (and live fire), make the pressure on the trigger slow and smooth. Once you begin to apply pressure to the trigger don't stop and start ("chicken finger"), but make it a slow, smooth pressure until the sear releases as a surprise. Slow and smooth, slow and smooth. Don't listen for the shot, don't blink, don't anticipate. Focus your eye and your mind on the 1. front sight; 2. sight picture; 3. relationship of 1 and 2 to the target. Be completely focused on the front sight when the shot breaks.
Work on this and you will achieve a "complete surprise break" -- the first step. The shot will break without either your conscious or subconscious knowing exactly when it's going to happen. You will even register a picture of the front sight jumping as the break occurs, and have a darned good idea of where the shot went (calling your shots). This could take a while to do consistently, but then you're well on the way to becoming a really good shot.
As a new shooter, the important thing is to learn to get that surprise break -- to not anticipate the gun going off. If you anticipate the shot, your subconscious will do some kind of rapid muscle twitch (usually combined with a mashing of the trigger at the last second) that throws the shot off. The classic flinch is where it tries to prevent the recoil by timing a pulling down of the front sight with the mashing of the trigger. For a leftie, this results in shots going down and to the right. Since it's coming from your subconscious, you can't consciously stop this (your subconscious is waaaay faster than your conscious mind). If you pay attention to your emotions while you shoot, you can feel the anticipation that makes this happen.
You can learn to not anticipate the shot. With practice, you can learn to not anticipate the shot even when you shoot very, very quickly. Consciously, you end up just not caring about the fact that the gun is going off because you're mentally (and visually) focused on the sights and nothing else (including your trigger finger) matters much. Firing the gun just happens.
First things first, though. Use dry fire practice to get used to breaking the shot without disturbing the sights. This also teaches/tricks your subconscious into not associating the break of the shot with recoil.
In the dry fire (and live fire), make the pressure on the trigger slow and smooth. Once you begin to apply pressure to the trigger don't stop and start ("chicken finger"), but make it a slow, smooth pressure until the sear releases as a surprise. Slow and smooth, slow and smooth. Don't listen for the shot, don't blink, don't anticipate. Focus your eye and your mind on the 1. front sight; 2. sight picture; 3. relationship of 1 and 2 to the target. Be completely focused on the front sight when the shot breaks.
Work on this and you will achieve a "complete surprise break" -- the first step. The shot will break without either your conscious or subconscious knowing exactly when it's going to happen. You will even register a picture of the front sight jumping as the break occurs, and have a darned good idea of where the shot went (calling your shots). This could take a while to do consistently, but then you're well on the way to becoming a really good shot.
Wow Once again you have Shown me my mistakes! Thank you so much, THis does explain quite a bit. I was able to hit quite good when i wasnt really "caring" i simply looked down the front sight and pulled the trigger evenly, But when i concentrated i didnt i pulled Held till i could feel it was about to break and then shot This would explain why thos shots veered of to god knows where! Well I hope to do much better at the range this weekend thank you for all your help!
Thanks. Any bullseye shooter can tell you that shooting accurately is about 90% mental, once you have the essential techniques down. Getting your subconscious mind (which ultimately controls your physical movements as well as a lot of your emotional stuff) to do what you want is a challenge to say the least. I shoot bullseye and IPSC, and it holds true in both.
The complete surprise break (the shot is not anticipated by either the conscious or subconscious) is the necessary first step. It teaches you how to call your shots and the problems with consciously now!-ing the shot.
The problem is that accuracy is not fully under your control -- the shot goes where the sights are, but that includes a certain amount of randomness since you aren't able to calculate when the shot SHOULD break. For bullseye shooters firing one-handed at up to 50 metres, you can get a decent group with a complete surprise break, but unless you have an impossibly steady hand, you're not going to shoot all tens.
Ultimately (but not right away), you want to have a controlled surprise break (the shot is not anticipated by the conscious, which perceives it as a mild surprise, but the break is actually controlled by the subconscious, which times it to happen at the right instant). This is what you need to do to really shoot well IMO.
Far as I can figure at this point in my shooting, you spend the rest of your life trying to perfect it! Self-image, concentration, emotional control and physical technique all make it hard to do it consistently. It's fun trying, though and makes it a lifetime game.
The complete surprise break (the shot is not anticipated by either the conscious or subconscious) is the necessary first step. It teaches you how to call your shots and the problems with consciously now!-ing the shot.
The problem is that accuracy is not fully under your control -- the shot goes where the sights are, but that includes a certain amount of randomness since you aren't able to calculate when the shot SHOULD break. For bullseye shooters firing one-handed at up to 50 metres, you can get a decent group with a complete surprise break, but unless you have an impossibly steady hand, you're not going to shoot all tens.
Ultimately (but not right away), you want to have a controlled surprise break (the shot is not anticipated by the conscious, which perceives it as a mild surprise, but the break is actually controlled by the subconscious, which times it to happen at the right instant). This is what you need to do to really shoot well IMO.
Far as I can figure at this point in my shooting, you spend the rest of your life trying to perfect it! Self-image, concentration, emotional control and physical technique all make it hard to do it consistently. It's fun trying, though and makes it a lifetime game.
If you're starting to get groups using only iron sights, but they're not going where you want them (one large hole right in the centre), this chart might help you.
http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/TargetRightHanded.pdf
this is assuming you're right handed, if you're a leftie, then try this one:
http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/TargetLeftHanded.pdf
I'm a relatively new handgun shooter as well, and at first it's a lot to remember - it's not as easy as pointing a gun at a target and pulling the trigger. There's stance, grip, sight picture and trigger pull (to name a few), but after a while they all start to come together, and your groups start to come together.
http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/TargetRightHanded.pdf
this is assuming you're right handed, if you're a leftie, then try this one:
http://www.reloadbench.com/pdf/files/TargetLeftHanded.pdf
I'm a relatively new handgun shooter as well, and at first it's a lot to remember - it's not as easy as pointing a gun at a target and pulling the trigger. There's stance, grip, sight picture and trigger pull (to name a few), but after a while they all start to come together, and your groups start to come together.
Hey Shootitup,
I was amused to read ytour article and find out what pistol you are shooting. Although I don't have any advice for you I thought I would share my similar stroy so you don't feel you are alone.
I too am new to handgunning and I too just bought a Beretta, although I got a 92FS Brigadier. Same thing with me. I had been very successful shooting other hanguns, 586, 686, glock, 1911, DE .50,, and so on all with decent results.
Then I took out my brand new Beretta, (my very first handgun) sent the target out to 25 metres, and threw 5 rounds down range. Brought the target back, not only did I not hit the target, I did not hit the backerboard either. I was crushed. Thought I had a bad gun. Then a friend tried, he is in the military, and he was pulling 1 1/2 groups at 15 metres. OK not the gun. Ive only put about 200 rounds through her to date but I am getting inconsistant results.
The most improvement I have seen so far is from a change in my stance. AS I shot trap for a couple of years prior to pistol I found I performed better by squaring my stance off, for trap I would put left foot forward to brace my stance. I used the reference target and it would seem I am slapping the trigger, although it seems to me I am pulling smooth and consistant!
My groups are about 6 inches at 15 metres, if you call that a group. I can get about 75% of my shots in the black, but I have a lot of work to do to get a decent group. A fellow shooter has suggested getting a new slide spring to absorb more recoil.
I have heard mixed stories about Berettas and accuracy, some love it, some not so much!
If you find a cure I'd love to hear about it.
Cheers
I was amused to read ytour article and find out what pistol you are shooting. Although I don't have any advice for you I thought I would share my similar stroy so you don't feel you are alone.
I too am new to handgunning and I too just bought a Beretta, although I got a 92FS Brigadier. Same thing with me. I had been very successful shooting other hanguns, 586, 686, glock, 1911, DE .50,, and so on all with decent results.
Then I took out my brand new Beretta, (my very first handgun) sent the target out to 25 metres, and threw 5 rounds down range. Brought the target back, not only did I not hit the target, I did not hit the backerboard either. I was crushed. Thought I had a bad gun. Then a friend tried, he is in the military, and he was pulling 1 1/2 groups at 15 metres. OK not the gun. Ive only put about 200 rounds through her to date but I am getting inconsistant results.
The most improvement I have seen so far is from a change in my stance. AS I shot trap for a couple of years prior to pistol I found I performed better by squaring my stance off, for trap I would put left foot forward to brace my stance. I used the reference target and it would seem I am slapping the trigger, although it seems to me I am pulling smooth and consistant!
My groups are about 6 inches at 15 metres, if you call that a group. I can get about 75% of my shots in the black, but I have a lot of work to do to get a decent group. A fellow shooter has suggested getting a new slide spring to absorb more recoil.
I have heard mixed stories about Berettas and accuracy, some love it, some not so much!
If you find a cure I'd love to hear about it.
Cheers
shootitup said:
The pistols "ACCURACY"... has absolutely nothing to do with the sighting system. It is the guns design which may or may not lead to a repeatability of its physical components to fire shots with repeatable on target results... the motions of the action and lockup must be the same each time... the more repeatable, the more accuracy you can potentially expect to recieve.
"YOUR ABILITY" to fire the gun accurately, is a different story. Its a subtle, but important difference. Beretta's are not built with accuracy as their number one priority. Reliability is. (As it should be with a military side arm IMHO) Due to the heavy trigger firing them is not easy.
If you are getting good results with a laser, but not open sights, it is your ability to use open sights properly that needs work. (Unless you have some strange adjustable sights that are loose then it could be the sights but it doesn't appear that's the case.)
The potential inherent 'accuracy' of a firearm does not change with the sighting system. A lot of people will probably disagree with me on that, but I stand by it.
Now, don't go 'tapping' those sights just yet. When you can shoot consistent groups, and your buddy shoots similar consistent groups and you find that both your groups are snug but off center by the same amount, go ahead and adjust.
If you are having trouble with open sights remember that 1)a beretta does not have target sights... they are sloppy. 2) your groups are NOT going to be as tight as with a laser, cuz if you are looking at the sights properly, the target is just a big blur. With a laser you are also probably seeing just how wobbly you are and making corrections for 'slap', pull etc... cuz that sort of stuff is a lot harder to diagnose without a laser.
If you have a hard time 'keeping still' or 'tremble' some shooters use an old trick whereby they intentionally move their hand in a 'laid down' figure eight.
There are two points at which the muzzle will cover the x ring. By shrinking the eight in size and slowing down as you approch the x the theory is that you time the shot and can eliminate tremble. I know an old guy that shakes and he uses this with good results. Myself I don't do it... but its worth mentioning.
Don't expect too much from yourself right off, you have a very difficult pistol to master. Slow squeeze, front sight focus, surprise break... You can acheive 3-4" at 25 yards with patience.
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Fixed sights are set up for ONE configuration of ammo only. Did you get a test target with the gun? Does it tell you what was used to make it? If it does, pick up some similar ammo, and shoot at the same range - see if you can more or less duplicate the test results with the sights fixed where they are. Once you are able to do that - then look at other ammo combinations and sight setup to accomplish what you want.
Yup, I TOTALLY hear you guys now, My friend who is ex military showed me hwo to shoot properly now, He showed me alot of things to practice (surprise break , trigger pull, body posture) Every now and then i would get cocky and start forgetting the surprise break, And he said don't lose focus of what we are trying to accomplish if you take it slow learn the basics, You will be able to shoot fast with accuracy, Just like any other sport i guess! with the amount of rounds we spent as well i also see why .22 is great for the wallet
