New shooter wants contructive criticisim (Sig P226 video included!)

drgroove101

drgroove101

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Hi, I'm new to this forum, just getting into shooting. Unfortunatly I don't have anyone else that has gotten me into shooting. I've always been interested in guns, I play lots of video games, love FPS's. I've fired air guns a lot, and own one, but one day I thought, "gosh dang darn-it, i want to do the real thing!"

I signed up to take the CFSC and I'm taking it next week. I also signed up for the restricted course and I hope to get that completed in december. I'm taking the courses here in Kitchener Ontario at shooters choice. I'm paying $147 for the pal, and $152 for the RPAL course. The RPAL course doubles as a range membership course as well so that's good. I plan on becoming a member there obviously.

What I want to do is get my PAL, and get a 10/22 for some fun, and then get my RPAL and get a sig226 for some real fun.

In your opinion for a newly licensed person, is it better to sumbit an application for both the PAL and RPAL license simutaneously, or is it ok to get the PAL first, then submit for an RPAL about one month later?

Here is a video of the first time i've shot a Sig Sauer P226 9mm;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pTw4SveCYE

My recoil control needs some work, and my trigger control... probably my stance too... What do you guys think? Can't wait to get my own gun though and get some serious practice in, target shooting sure is fun!
 
Nice video but without seeing the target it's hard to know what is going on.
Dry fire practice helps me keep on target most of the time.
pistolchart.gif
 
See how the second guy has less recoil kick due to holding his arms locked and rolling his shoulders more into the shooting? The first guy should try to follow that style. more than the casual elbows kinked and shoulders at an angle to the firing line.

Other than that here's my two most favourite free online resources I've found for grip and stance....

An excellent description of the two handed thumbs forward semi auto pistol grip. This write up ties in well with the next link.
http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/combatg_100306/

Todd Jarret in a trailer for a video on pistol gripping and shooting. Lots of good hints.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48
 
prproulx said:
Nice video but without seeing the target it's hard to know what is going on.
Dry fire practice helps me keep on target most of the time.
Click to expand...

Here is a picture. Shot this target pretty hard, should of changed it sooner, but was just enjoying letting some rounds fly. Most were shot from 5 yards I believe, and some about 7 and some 15.
IMG_0657.jpg


That picture you posted is helpful, I saved it to my hard drive thanks!
 
BCRider said:
See how the second guy has less recoil kick due to holding his arms locked and rolling his shoulders more into the shooting? The first guy should try to follow that style. more than the casual elbows kinked and shoulders at an angle to the firing line.

Other than that here's my two most favourite free online resources I've found for grip and stance....

An excellent description of the two handed thumbs forward semi auto pistol grip. This write up ties in well with the next link.
http://www.handgunsmag.com/tactics_training/combatg_100306/

Todd Jarret in a trailer for a video on pistol gripping and shooting. Lots of good hints.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48
Click to expand...

Thats a good write up and a great video thanks! I was taught to hold the gun this way already, I didn't like arms locked position for some reason that day, I'll have to try that next time I go out for sure though as I see thats how everyone was shooting in the Todd Jarret video
 
Since you say you shot a bunch at a quicker rate it's hard to accurately rate the target. But if I had to guess I'd say that the general trend being down towards the 7 oclock area shows that you've got a healthy flinch going on.

If you've got a .22 as well as a centerfire available try shooting a magazine of .22 then a magazine of centerfire then back to the .22. Concentrate on all the good things with the .22 and then try to just fluidly move to the centerfire and not anticipate and flinch. If you still have issues with centerfire grouping then get some snap cap dummies and have a buddy load your magazines with a dummy or two in the load at random positions. Then both you and he look for your flinch when you "find" the dummy rounds. It may not cure it but it'll sure show you if it's still there. The cure just comes from inside you and learning to pull the trigger and let the actual firing catch you by surprise.

Dry firing practice can also help a lot. Look at the sight picture as you pull the trigger. ANY signs of the sight picture kicking to the side will be greatly magnified by a real round going off. You want to be able to keep the sight picture intact while pulling the trigger. A nickel laid on the center flat just behind the front sight is also a good training aid. You should be able to dry fire the gun without disturbing the nickel.
 
you can see the flinch after a few shots, if you are the first guy. I would recommend a .22 pistol or a .22lr conversion for the sig so you can get the basics down before developing too many bad habits. I had a CZ with the Kadet kit and it was the best investment I ever made when learning how to shoot. I just recently bought a Glock and it is like learning all over again with the strange trigger pull compared to the czand my Nork 1911. I am gonna buy a Advantage Arms .22 kit to help practice.
 
drgroove101 said:
Thats a good write up and a great video thanks! I was taught to hold the gun this way already, I didn't like arms locked position for some reason that day, I'll have to try that next time I go out for sure though as I see thats how everyone was shooting in the Todd Jarret video
Click to expand...

I don't like locking both arms either. I 'lock' the arm that holds the firearm and the other arm is bent slightly. I notice that the recoil seems to push your upper body backward slightly. Don't lock your knees and lean forward a tad.....If you want to be more on target, slow your rate of fire and try to 'group' your strings first before worrying about hitting the bullseye. Once you can group your shots then you'll know you can be consistent. After that work on hitting the bullseye. Lookin' good for a first time out...
 
You could try having a buddy load random amounts of ammo in your mags.

bang, bang, bang, bang, click...

When there's not another 'bang' you'll see what kind of anticipation or flinch you're dealing with. I like doing it to first-time shooters I bring as guests after a full mag or two, just so they realize what they're doing.

Got the idea from a couple of misfires I had one day. I was quite surprised to see how much I was pushing down when all I got was a 'click'.
 
If your target is shot at 5 - 15 yards, you are flinching, closing your eyes or shooting over your shoulder with a mirror....

At that distance, the bullets should be in one hole the size of a loonie.

Shooting is something you learn, with good coaching. A good example is skiing. you can learn to ski without lessons. I did. Now an instructor tells me that I am very good at skiing badly, and it may be too late to teach me the right way.

You need a 22 pistol (I use a Ruger) and a coach. You need to do a lot of shooting at a slow pace, learning to get a good sight picture and breaking the shot cleanly.

At 20 yards you should train to be able to get all 10 shots in the black. When you can do that, then you can move onto something bigger, like a SIG 9mm.

It helps if you handload. I shoot lead bullets in loads that work well in each gun. My CZ 9mm likes the 135 gr lead round nose bullet over 4.0 gr of 231. This load also makes the IDPA power requirement.

My 45 likes 6.0gr of 7625 under a 200 gr lead semi-wadcutter.

If you blaze away at short range, you are just learning to shoot the way I ski - badly.

I am a pretty good rifle shot and am learning how to shoot a handgun. I can just barely keep 10 in the black, and am now learning how to shoot faster. But when I do, the group opens up terribly. Mostly down and left.

I cannot over emphasize the importance of coaching, so you are practicing the right things, not the bad things.

Here are 20 yard centre fire targets shot deliberate fire.

NORINCO1911TARGET1.jpg


CZ75BGROUP2.jpg
 
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mlehtovaara said:
you can see the flinch after a few shots, if you are the first guy. I would recommend a .22 pistol or a .22lr conversion for the sig so you can get the basics down before developing too many bad habits. I had a CZ with the Kadet kit and it was the best investment I ever made when learning how to shoot. I just recently bought a Glock and it is like learning all over again with the strange trigger pull compared to the czand my Nork 1911. I am gonna buy a Advantage Arms .22 kit to help practice.
Click to expand...

Yea I'm looking to get a sig 9mm with a 22lr conversion kit, for practice and cheap ammo. It's right expensive, but should be worth it.
 
misfire said:
I don't like locking both arms either. I 'lock' the arm that holds the firearm and the other arm is bent slightly. I notice that the recoil seems to push your upper body backward slightly. Don't lock your knees and lean forward a tad.....If you want to be more on target, slow your rate of fire and try to 'group' your strings first before worrying about hitting the bullseye. Once you can group your shots then you'll know you can be consistent. After that work on hitting the bullseye. Lookin' good for a first time out...
Click to expand...

Thanks man, that's good advice. I'm gonna try locking one arm and making sure I'm leaning forward a bit next time
 
gasoperated said:
You could try having a buddy load random amounts of ammo in your mags.

bang, bang, bang, bang, click...

When there's not another 'bang' you'll see what kind of anticipation or flinch you're dealing with. I like doing it to first-time shooters I bring as guests after a full mag or two, just so they realize what they're doing.

Got the idea from a couple of misfires I had one day. I was quite surprised to see how much I was pushing down when all I got was a 'click'.
Click to expand...

Yea i've heard of doing this too, there is a old dude on you tube who has some great shooting videos, Hickock i think his name is. I was at the store yesterday and was looking at some snap caps.. they are like 20 bucks for 5! kinda expensive. I still want to get some though to do lots of dry fire and reloading practice.
 
Ganderite said:
If your target is shot at 5 - 15 yards, you are flinching, closing your eyes or shooting over your shoulder with a mirror....

At that distance, the bullets should be in one hole the size of a loonie.

Shooting is something you learn, with good coaching. A good example is skiing. you can learn to ski without lessons. I did. Now an instructor tells me that I am very good at skiing badly, and it may be too late to teach me the right way.

You need a 22 pistol (I use a Ruger) and a coach. You need to do a lot of shooting at a slow pace, learning to get a good sight picture and breaking the shot cleanly.

At 20 yards you should train to be able to get all 10 shots in the black. When you can do that, then you can move onto something bigger, like a SIG 9mm.

It helps if you handload. I shoot lead bullets in loads that work well in each gun. My CZ 9mm likes the 135 gr lead round nose bullet over 4.0 gr of 231. This load also makes the IDPA power requirement.

My 45 likes 6.0gr of 7625 under a 200 gr lead semi-wadcutter.

If you blaze away at short range, you are just learning to shoot the way I ski - badly.

I am a pretty good rifle shot and am learning how to shoot a handgun. I can just barely keep 10 in the black, and am now learning how to shoot faster. But when I do, the group opens up terribly. Mostly down and left.

I cannot over emphasize the importance of coaching, so you are practicing the right things, not the bad things.

Here are 20 yard centre fire targets shot deliberate fire.
Click to expand...

Wow nice groupings! I will get this good one day for sure. I want to get a 22lr conversion for a sig, I heard they are really good after a breakin period, and only downside is the slide dosnt lock after the last round.

Hand loading sounds interesting, how much cheaper is it? I think a box of 50 9mm rounds runs about 22-25 bucks? How much would it cost to load 50 rounds yourself? That'd be a whole different ball game for me, i know nothing about it. But if I really get into shooting might be something I'd be willing to learn. Ammo ain't cheap thats for sure, 22's are pretty cheap though
 
Ganderite said:
...I cannot over emphasize the importance of coaching, so you are practicing the right things, not the bad things...
Click to expand...

but who is going to hire someone to come to the range with them all the time? Are you suggesting a few pistol courses, or an one one one instructor to tag with you to the range? Its easy for me to get someone to watch me shoot and tell me what to do, but how reliable with 'random person #x' and his coaching be? I know i need a lot of work on my pistol shooting. And all my resources from from here and google. I probably just became a better shot simply reading and watching the links posted above...

BTW really nice groupings. specially that first one.
 
drgroove101 said:
Hand loading sounds interesting, how much cheaper is it? I think a box of 50 9mm rounds runs about 22-25 bucks?
Click to expand...

its not cheaper. people who reload tend to shoot more. but you have to factor in the material costs, the equipment costs, real-estate in your residence, and most importantly (to me) the personal time involved to reload. I don't have that much spare time in a day. If you can reload a lot, it might be worth your while. But it seems to most people, reloading gives them more intimate and personal knowledge of what they are doing, than it does a break on the wallet. Even when i am on the computer here i am doing research as i search threads. When i go to the range, i am putting at a minimum of 3 boxes of 50 thru the gun. You should buy ammo by the 1000 or at least 500 and get discounts. Also check all the sponsors on this site. A lot of them sell cases of ammo for a lot cheaper than your local store may. Even then, there is big price differences between them online.
 
drgroove101 said:
Hand loading sounds interesting, how much cheaper is it? I think a box of 50 9mm rounds runs about 22-25 bucks? How much would it cost to load 50 rounds yourself? That'd be a whole different ball game for me, i know nothing about it. But if I really get into shooting might be something I'd be willing to learn. Ammo ain't cheap thats for sure, 22's are pretty cheap though
Click to expand...

100 handloads using 124g FMJ costs me around 15.00, the biggest cost for me are the projectiles. You can save more if you use lead bullets and even more if you cast your own.
 
When we rifle shooters train for an important match, we shoot 22 all winter. It teaches us to shoot perfect shots. Same thing for learning how to shoot a pistol.

Most clubs have a few dedicated bullseye shooters. If you show some sincerity about wanting to learn how to shoot (like dryfiring for 20 minutes every day) one of them would give you some coaching.

The only thing that will teach you how to shoot better than a 22 is dry firing. But you need some basic coaching so you are practicing the right things.
 
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