New Sniper Rifle "System"
- Thread starter summerside sniper
- Start date
Care to elaborate?Savage said:
I find a lot of this stuff to be subjective. I know a few snipers in my unit that think that the Armalite AR10 is THE sh*t. Why? They aren't gun guys, and haven't handled anything better, that's why. Not knockin' the AR10, just saying a lot of the times people don't know any better, even the real world operators. Even when they do know their stuff, opinions can vary wildly. Guy I know absolutely hated the Blaser when they were doing the .338 trials, does that mean that it's junk, I have no idea.
Leg said:
+1
I've seen a clapped out SR-25 (old fiberglass handguard and 24" bbl with a lot of rounds thru it) be used as a comparator for a Mk11 -- well a lot of guys hated it -- well duh.
Also a trial may of may not reflect real life usage. Sometimes a gun that passes a trail turns out not to have been the best choice from the operational standpoint.
The other problems is when vendors "cherry pick" samples for the trial.
KevinB said:
I have to jump in here and disagree. The AR10 has been used to great effect in Afghanistan and the SR25 and M14 in Iraq. The problem with the whole issue is that military is its own worst enemy. The M14 is doing things that it was never designed to do and fitted by guys who got the info off the internet and heading out into combat...and they have problems. Or guys deciding to modify the gear because it looks good and finding out it malfunctions then blaming the whole piece of kit. Personally, I think people are just looking to find argument in all of this...being it 7.62mm vs 5.56mm, AR10 vs SR-25....there is no perfect rifle, no perfect ammo but I tell you what, I would gladly take an AR10 or SR25 into battle if I was performing a DM role or #2 for a sniper team....they are both good kit.
Now discussing the AR10 in Canadian use. Having spent two years dealing with this at the army level before I got out, I can tell you the AR10 did and is doing great work overseas. It is the **it because it is doing exactly what it is suppose to be doing. It becomes a ford vs chevy thing but at the end of the day, if it is providing 7.62mm therapy to the taliban...who cares? This is like a monty python skit...I came here for an argument! I have first had accounts for record on the performance of the rifle. The problem we now face is these rifles have been working continuously for 5 years and are beginning to wear out. There is no maintenance plan for the rifles and they are beginning to show the mileage. It doesn't matter what rifle it is, no maintenance for 5 years with continuous operational use, it will begin to fail. I was working to get some life cycle management to maintain them but was unsuccessful. And to demonstrate the problem with the CF. One group want to get another rifle, another are satisifed with the current rifle and see no reason to loose capablity. The reality is that it will take years to run a selection program with personnel we don't have to even start looking at something else. So because of "tribalism" in the infantry....we will have none. So sometimes, the ford vs chevy argument can work against us. As I said before, I don't care what platform we use, as long as it does the business on the terminal end...we could argue that this rifle is better than that rifle until the end of time.....having shot both, I would be happy with either but why argue the difference. As KevinB noted, there is so much emotion noted on this issue that we might risk never getting the rifle at all....
Cheers
Jeff
The M14 sucked the most...
Do a search over at SOCNET and see what the US SOTIC guys have to say about the M14. Some of the guys carried it in RVN...
It aint pretty.
Jeff -- I was more thinking about the C7A2 trial
Keep in mind the round counts the US trial enforced...
7.62mm gas guns - are not a 5.56mm M16/M4/C7/C8
Attempting to try to make them do that volume of fire is a reciepe for disaster -- the same thing can happen with a DM.
Do a search over at SOCNET and see what the US SOTIC guys have to say about the M14. Some of the guys carried it in RVN...
It aint pretty.
Jeff -- I was more thinking about the C7A2 trial
Keep in mind the round counts the US trial enforced...
7.62mm gas guns - are not a 5.56mm M16/M4/C7/C8
Attempting to try to make them do that volume of fire is a reciepe for disaster -- the same thing can happen with a DM.
The problem is the mags just plain SUCK at last years 3rd annual McMillan Sniper Match there were 2 DPMS offering in 762 both were plagued with mag problems .I dont think that would be a problem in Canada as we are limited to 5rd magsLeg said:
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I wasn't suggesting that a DPMS be tested for a new Canadian rifle, merely interested how it stacks up against the others (KAC, AR10) in terms of reliability etc...Savage said:
As for mag issues, I have heard of some with DPMS, I thought this was mostly related to the plastic mags they first came out with. For some reason the new steel ones are being hawked as 19 rds only. The mag point is really moot, if the mags don't work than replace them with KAC or the original AR10 mag. Hard to find, but doable.
Agree!
I did some shooting with the Knight Rifles SR25 Out side of Vegas it was very impressive, but I rather went with the Ar10 Armalite, part in Armalite are more beef up to accommodate a larger bolt for the 7.62X51 round. This is my second Ar10T, Absolutely love it.
here are the different!
Worth the check if you wanted to get one!.
http://www.biggerhammer.net/stoner/sr25var10/
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We have KAC M110 and Mk11 Mod1 rifles as well as AR10T Noveske uppers here at work. I can guarantee you the KAC gun is a HUGE step up. The Armalite mags -- even brand new ones we get sucks ass -- the 20 rds capacity may not be an issue for civilian Canadian usage, and 99.99% of the users on this board have no worries if they have stoppages or poor performance.
The M14 is a joke and I cant have a rationale conversation with anyone who recommends it.
The M14 is a joke and I cant have a rationale conversation with anyone who recommends it.
PerversPépère
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Shawinigan (Quebec)
I think they are either the internal dissipator baffles' locating dimples or simply baffle spotwelding marks.
PP.
Admittedly I dont do much shooting these days outside work, and don't live in Canada anymore either.
It really depends upon what use you want. I would say that the AR10 is a fine civilian 7.62mm gun - as in Canada the 5rd mag issue and the lack of a need for reliability is okay - you wont work the gun to a problem point. The DPMS gun is nicer IMHO since it is more Stoner friendly and can use KAC parts and mags.
I would be interested in the 7.62x51 versions of the Magpul rifle, and then FN Mk17 (SCAR-H) guns -- plus the Hk417 if R Nicholls cared about civilian sales.
It really depends upon what use you want. I would say that the AR10 is a fine civilian 7.62mm gun - as in Canada the 5rd mag issue and the lack of a need for reliability is okay - you wont work the gun to a problem point. The DPMS gun is nicer IMHO since it is more Stoner friendly and can use KAC parts and mags.
I would be interested in the 7.62x51 versions of the Magpul rifle, and then FN Mk17 (SCAR-H) guns -- plus the Hk417 if R Nicholls cared about civilian sales.
Davy Crockett
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Fraser Valley
Hi KevinB
Could you explain a bit more?
I see a lot of pictures from Iraq showing US forces still using the M14. Is this just because there isn't anything better available or are they filling a different role than what's being talked about here?
M14's where grabbed from WarStock to give the Platoons and squads a DM gun with a 7.62mm range and penetration -- as the mud walled compounds are tough -- also remember BigArmy M16A2/A4 and M4's have the craptastic 3 rd burst trigger group in them.
The M14 system requires a lot of work to get it to work, and be accurate.
That support does not exist in any theatre.
Plus its not a system taught in any of the schools anymore -- so you have a weapon with three strikes against it.
The M110 is replacing them and the M24 in some places.
The M14 system requires a lot of work to get it to work, and be accurate.
That support does not exist in any theatre.
Plus its not a system taught in any of the schools anymore -- so you have a weapon with three strikes against it.
The M110 is replacing them and the M24 in some places.
not for sale to the general public also US govt will not allow export of this plarform to non Mil or LE agencies
They're spot welds for the sound suppression system..(i Think).. And i'd put my money on him not even hitting the paper. Kidding.
...and of course its its an AR variant. Stretched out. The original AR 10's had a goofy charging handle under the carrying handle.
