new to blackpowder - questions

84wankel

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hey guys,

a number of months ago i purchased a 45 cal euroarms kentuckian percussion gun. i have been starting to shoot it with .440 hornady round balls, traditions prelubed patches and 45 grains of fffg pyrodex ( i will likely switch to goex blackpowder after im done this supply). i was given that 45 grains as a starting measure. id like to fiddle with it a bit to either increase accuracy / consistency, but id like to know what you guys use as a guideline for increasing powder charge especially what to look for as a pressure sign. in a bolt gun i know to look at the primer and if the bolt stiffens up on opening. right now, ive got about 4" groups at 50 yards, is that decent for a round ball? im thinking of grabbing a minie mold eventually and toying with that. i feel like much like rimfire, i have ventured down a path to a series of rabbit holes lol..

any help or guidance is appreciated
 
4" at 50yds is not good at all, barring some serious defect in the barrel (unlikely but possible) you should be able to shoot much better than that. There are several things to keep in mind when shooting these rifles: the thickness of your patch, the diameter of your ball and of course the diameter of your bore. A tight fit is best. I have owned several Italian percussion rifles (usually Investarms and a few Pedersoli) and have had no qualms about loading anywhere from 40grs to 80grs of ffg or fffg GOEX powder. That is what I am comfortable with in MY gun, you'll have to make your own decision. That being said, an accurate load should be somewhere between 40 and 65grs for you as a ball park. A minie mold can be pointless if the twist rate of your rifle is unsuitable for such bullets. If you intend to hunt with this rifle and are working up a load for that purpose, decide if you are going to hunt with a fresh or fouled bore and do your load workup starting in that condition and returning to it before each shot. I hope that helps!
 
i do give it a cleaning after each shot as the ball becomes very difficult to run down the bore. right now it is quite snug going down the barrel to where i need to sort of knock the ball down the barrel. maybe if i get time this week i will run some more testing and go up to 65grains in 5 grain incriments and see what happens. i wasnt sure how high to go or what signs of overpressure can be seen in these guns.

thanks!
 
I have a CVA 45 Kentucky. I am using 0.440 home cast, 0.018 patch with 50 grs of Goex 3fg. Benched that load will cloverleaf the balls at 50 meters. I have used up to 90 grs and Maxi’s for hunting. Maxi’s need at least a 1 in 48 twist or faster to stabilize. 1 in 48 works well with both ball and conical. For lube I am using TC bore butter on my rolls of mattresse ticking and I do not clean until 30 shots. Accuracy falls off between 30 to 40 shots from it if not cleaned.
 
i do give it a cleaning after each shot as the ball becomes very difficult to run down the bore. right now it is quite snug going down the barrel to where i need to sort of knock the ball down the barrel. maybe if i get time this week i will run some more testing and go up to 65grains in 5 grain incriments and see what happens. i wasnt sure how high to go or what signs of overpressure can be seen in these guns.

thanks!

I think I know what you mean by "knocking the ball down the bore" and it is not good for accuracy. Seating your ball at the breach should be a smooth and consistent downwards pressure that is repeatable shot to shot. I found that having a nice heavy brass range rod really helped getting the ball moving after short starting without needing to hammer it down the bore deforming it along the way.
 
I think I know what you mean by "knocking the ball down the bore" and it is not good for accuracy. Seating your ball at the breach should be a smooth and consistent downwards pressure that is repeatable shot to shot. I found that having a nice heavy brass range rod really helped getting the ball moving after short starting without needing to hammer it down the bore deforming it along the way.

okay, i will look into that. im using the factory rod and it is very light. i looked at my patches. its a 440 round ball with .015 prelubed patches. if i can this weekend i will really focus on shooting a 3rnd grouping to see what i can get. this will be fun to monkey with.

appreciate all the info
 
I have a CVA 45 Kentucky. I am using 0.440 home cast, 0.018 patch with 50 grs of Goex 3fg. Benched that load will cloverleaf the balls at 50 meters. I have used up to 90 grs and Maxi’s for hunting. Maxi’s need at least a 1 in 48 twist or faster to stabilize. 1 in 48 works well with both ball and conical. For lube I am using TC bore butter on my rolls of mattresse ticking and I do not clean until 30 shots. Accuracy falls off between 30 to 40 shots from it if not cleaned.

one thing i dont know, or havent been able to find is what the twist rate is on this barrel.
 
going back to the original posting, if the ball is hard to get down the barrel, it sounds as if either your patch is too thick or your lube is too dry. For target shooting, I use moose milk which is a mixture of water soluable oil and water plus some minor extras. Your patches should be damp to the touch. Greasy patches are fine for hunting because they don't dry out but for target shooting and multiple shots I find I get too much fouling. I would also use 3F powder, in part to get less fouling of the barrel. Finally, I would make a small square bullseye to shoot at and use a 6 o'clock hold on the bull. Square because it gives a sharp distinction of the side and top and bottom of the bull. 6 o'clock because it is more precise than somewhere in the middle of the black. Finally I would use sights which are like pistol sights; square post in front and a square notch at the back with a flat top to the sight and when sighting you want the top of the front sight level with the flat top of the rear sight. The whole idea of the sights is to have a very repeatable sight picture when you shoot. Finally I would shoot 5 shot groups to reduce the problem of groups based on an occasional flyer. I would start at 25 yards and work out as you refine your group and obviously shoot bench rest to eliminate you from the equation. Almost forgot; buy your patching with a micrometer. I use roughly .015" patches but you need to find what works best for you

cheers mooncoon
 
try your rifle with 5 grains 3 f g under 50 grains by volume of pyrodex rs learn yow to read your patches get a book will see a difference when you load the second shot do not clean the bbl you will feel resistance at the bottom 1 inch of the bbl thats fouling from the 3fg make sure the ball is seated pyrodex has ignition delays especialy in side lock systems hense the 3f on the bottom get a bit of pillow ticing from a sewing fabric store take a micromiter with you then try some patch thicknesses have fun try the same load under an mmp 45 sabot with a 357 dia 146 gr hp bullet this is for fun but you may be surprised deer load i have shot 20 loads of pyrodex rs with no cleaning and little loss in accuracy read read read its all good goot luck
 
Check out the Traditional muzzleloading forum. They have a lot of info on shooting the old stuff. I started on a .45 Hawken, and used round balls. I was shooting 65 grains of 3f goex and a good heavy patch with moose snot for lube. My first muzzleloader whitetail fell to that 440 round ball.
 
Re: pressures.

First of all I am no Muzzle loader shooting expert but I have done a bit over the years and I have done a pile of reading on B P shooting, mostly cannons lately but B P/Muzzleloader shooting is mostly the same from 1/2" bore to 3" bore.

Firstly I know of no outwardly "visible" pressure signs that we can see, specifically the first sign that you can plainly see is a destroyed gun. Luckily, with BP, destroying a gun, while possible to do, it is very hard to do without extenuating circumstances like "tight double balling" or "short seating" a ball. There is often a reference to "over powdering" that is claimed to be easily seen by un-burnt powder kernels on the ground (more on this later) but this doesn't signify a pressure issue at all.

I am not suggesting that over-pressure isn't possible with BP (after all the US navy blew a 16" gun turret apart with some one time), just that it is hard to do. Your ball tightness or weight (as in double balling) will dictate pressures just as much as the powder charge. The US Parks Service commissioned a 'small arms & cannon" test for BP pressures in small arms used at re-unions & N-S re-enactments. Very much better testing equipment was used than was available when BP was used extensively. They discovered that, while "usual circumstants's" use of BP produced pressures under 23,000 (your is quite likely under 18,000), it was , with tight or large overweight projectiles, very easy to produce 30,000 or more. The US navy claimed that testing with the newer testing equipment after the turret explosion, that their big guns could easily surpass 100,000 flbs under certain conditions. In the middle of the civil war, a bunch of Lincolns war cabinet was attending a new, very large Columbiad" gun demonstration (I think it was a 55 lb powder charge) and the gun destroyed itself along with many of the observers ... Your Muzzle loader, with the charges offered up by folks here, with "normal ball tightness seated "on the powder" is probably in the 16-18,000 range.

The other "gun destroying" condition that the experts claim is the "short seated" ball. I and others have theories on why this is a "thing" but I don't know of any scientific testing that has been done under these conditions, probably because it would destroy some very expensive testing equipment on something that is already well know to be a fact. My theory is that the powder expansion reaches full force in the larger chamber before the projectile has a chance to start moving, producing a higher than normal curve than if the projectile starts moving as the powder ignites and continues to do so as the pressure curve increases. The fact is that I have looked at dozens of photo's of vintage cannons that have come apart under pressure and vitualy 100% are destroyed somewhere ahead of where the powder chamber would be. The theory being (and it is mentioned in Civil War Artillery training manuals) is that, under battle conditions when rapid fire is appropriate the powder charge is rammed sometimes with a live ember still in the bore or touch hole, if it doesn't ignite immediately it will when the projectile is started to be rammed, the rush of air from the ball seating fans the ember and sudden firing occurs, and photo evidence shows that the gun comes apart where the ball was in the tube at the instant of firing. The Artillery regiments of both side had a man on every gun crew who's only job during battle was to plase his thumb as tight as possible over the touch hole to try to mitigate the air rush as possible,lots of times it didn't work...many civil war artireryist went home without a thumb...but they were the lucky ones, most of the other gun crew would have lost arms or been totally dead from such a mishap. I will add here that civil war artillery gun crews were expected to fire at a rate of at least 3 round per minute (not much time given to properly swab) and now after the US parks service testing, they have set a regulation, along with a host of others, of at least 3 minutes between rounds at any public or private function.

Concerning "un-burnt powder kernels", it is a common statement heard or read that "BP cannot be over-pressured because the over-powderage will just be blown out on the ground. I have read (I have it here somewhere in my mountain of literature on cannoneering) that the British Navy did some BP burning & pressure testing back in the 1870's with more modern equipment than they had available before then. They claimed to have proven by these tests that all BP was burnt in the first 16-18 inches of barrel length regardless of bore diameter. That is not to suggest that pressure or fire isn't present as it is ( I have slow motion camera photo's of a 15 ft fireball coming out of the bore of my full size cannon). Part of their testing included cannons regularly built and some of the same bore dia. and length only the tubes were cut out with long ports allowing pressure relief after 20 inches or so. The claimed that, with the same powder charge, the same velocity of projectile was attained with both cannons, even the one that had no pressure detainment after 20 inches. I have seen the black dots on snow from a muzzleloader that for years BP manuals have claimed is "un-burnt powder" but this long forgotten British testing suggests that it might just very well be all burnt carbon flecks...you be your own judge.

All this to say that quite likely you will have to try too, on purpose, increase BP pressures to a dangerous level.
 
hey guys,

a number of months ago i purchased a 45 cal euroarms kentuckian percussion gun. i have been starting to shoot it with .440 hornady round balls, traditions prelubed patches and 45 grains of fffg pyrodex ( i will likely switch to goex blackpowder after im done this supply). i was given that 45 grains as a starting measure. id like to fiddle with it a bit to either increase accuracy / consistency, but id like to know what you guys use as a guideline for increasing powder charge especially what to look for as a pressure sign. in a bolt gun i know to look at the primer and if the bolt stiffens up on opening. right now, ive got about 4" groups at 50 yards, is that decent for a round ball? im thinking of grabbing a minie mold eventually and toying with that. i feel like much like rimfire, i have ventured down a path to a series of rabbit holes lol..

any help or guidance is appreciated


All very solid advise given by others here ... one thing you can check for accuracy is your patches, retrieve the spent ones & examine. A shredded or torn patch = bad, either gas is escaping around the patch or there is an issue with the bore.

You should not need to hammer the ball down, your patches are probably too thick or try a slightly smaller ball.

Seat the ball with equal pressure each time, if you compact the powder too much things get squirrely

I've never used pyrodex so can't say - but there is a load chart for goex on their website. you can use 3F or 2F at that calibre, one may do better than the other.

I keep a patch in my mouth when shooting & wipe the bore with that between shots - spit seems to clean out the fouling amazingly!
 
One thing you should do is when loading your first ball on a clean barrel make sure the ball is seated on top of the powder, then mark your ram rod. You can be sure after that your ball seating all the way.
 
One thing you should do is when loading your first ball on a clean barrel make sure the ball is seated on top of the powder, then mark your ram rod. You can be sure after that your ball seating all the way.

yes that i have done. my ramrod has a brass end on it and when the ball is fully seated it sits right in the middle of that brass end. i could put a scribe mark on it for more accuracy.

to the others about the patches, i did look at my patches they are .015" and they looked okay ( the ones i could retrieve ) i plan to do some more shooting with it this weekend and see if i cant straighten it out. will try more powder charge sizes. just didnt want to put myself into a nasty situation by going to far.

thanks for all the advice.
 
On a clean barrel the patched ball should not be rough seating it. Some pressure for sure. But if it feels like it's crazy tight and won't move at least part way smoothly with each short stab of the ram rod then it's possible that the bore is badly pitted.

You SHOULD have to bump it down. If you don't need to bump it down a few inches at a time then the patch isn't tight enough. But it should not feel like it's getting badly caught up or rough when it does move. The fact that your patches are intact and not torn or worn through is a good sign that it's all OK.

You need to watch how you use the ramrod too. You should be starting and short seating with a short seater tool Then with the ram rod grasp it firmly about 5 to 6 inches up from the muzzle and bump the ball in with a short firm bump. If all is well you will push the ball down the 5 or 6 inches and just lightly touch the muzzle. It should progress firmly but consistently down the bore with repeated short stabs like this. If it catches and requires a very firm grab and jab and only moves a couple of inches or less then you're getting a buildup of fouling.

I've got a bunch of pre-lubed patches I like using but after about 6 shots I do find that the bore butter ain't doing the whole job any longer. Then I use a dry patch and a Moose Milk made from 1 part Ballistol and 5 parts water. Roughly about is close enough. The water and Ballistol does a good job of cleaning up the fouling. I don't bother swabbing the bore. Just use it on a dry patch for that 6 or 7 ball. Four to five drops worth. And push this "cleaning ball" home with short jabs and a touch of time to let it scrub the bore clean as it goes. Then I'm good with the bore butter patches for a bunch more shots.

I don't really find that this hurts my accuracy overly much either. I can miss just as well either way.... :D Seriously though if I were going with printing the smallest groups I could then I'd tend to opt for the patch lube which does not change after the first clean bore shot of the day. And that would be dry cloth with the Moose Milk. 3 drops worth per patch and the ramming stays very consistent. Then it's just a case of finding the ideal patch. Because patch fit and thickness does count in the accuracy at LEAST as much as does the ideal amount of powder.
 
If you google Dutch Schoultz black powder accuracy system, there is a lot of good info there. There is also a good amount of good info in the preceding posts.
I use that system on all my round ball guns, and i have an old Ardessa in .45 that will pull 2-3 inch at 70 yards from the bench if i do my part, and a CVA .32 that will 1 inch group all day at 50 yards.
 
I think trying different measures of powder might work for you. When I first started BP, I kept increasing my loads thinking it would give me better accuracy. This was in a 1/48 shallow groove Hawken style rifle. I think I was blowing the ball right past the rifling resulting in wild inaccuracy. I went all the way down to 30gr and started working my way up. 40 gr was where I got deadly accurate. This is with a Thompson Center Hawken 45. I hold high at 100 yds or bump powder up to 50gr. All the targets at the BP shoots I attend are at 25 or 50 yds except one at 100 yds.
I'm shooting a mix of 2F and 3F in equal parts because it pours out of my measure a lot easier. I first did this one day when I was running low on powder. It worked and it might be contributing to my good results. Experiment!
 
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