Polish-Jack
CGN Regular
- Location
- Kelowna, B.C. Canada
I want to start percision shooting and I have decided to go with a Savage rifle. What models should I consider?
New to precision shooting. I need some advice.
- Thread starter Polish-Jack
- Start date
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
First thing to consider is you range needs, are you shoting at 300, 600, maybe 1,000 yards?
Both the .308 and the .223 are fine, but you may want to go with the lighter of the two calibers , if you want to use it for varmints inside 300 yards, or maybe go with the .308 if you want to hunt deer with it.
I use a BT112 in ,223 and shoot it to 1,000 with no problem id there is no wind, but with the 1:9 twist I am limited to the 69 grain bullet.
A faster twist will enablke you to use the heavier bullets foir 1,000 if you want.
Most felleas use the .308, I think, but I may be wrong.
Cat
Both the .308 and the .223 are fine, but you may want to go with the lighter of the two calibers , if you want to use it for varmints inside 300 yards, or maybe go with the .308 if you want to hunt deer with it.
I use a BT112 in ,223 and shoot it to 1,000 with no problem id there is no wind, but with the 1:9 twist I am limited to the 69 grain bullet.
A faster twist will enablke you to use the heavier bullets foir 1,000 if you want.
Most felleas use the .308, I think, but I may be wrong.
Cat
If you want to save a couple bucks, get the Savage 12FV model, it has a 26 inch barrel and is blued rather than parkerized and the bolt is shiny rather than parkerized...
Cheers
Jay
P.S. Overall, either the 10FP or the 12FV are worth every penny...
Cheers
Jay
P.S. Overall, either the 10FP or the 12FV are worth every penny...
Polish-Jack
CGN Regular
- Location
- Kelowna, B.C. Canada
catnthehatt said:
The range I frequent has a 275 yard rifle range so I guess I will be shooting at 300. I would like to be able to use the rifle for 600 as well for the future.
catnthehatt said:
I do not hunt so no need to factor that into the round type. I am looking at the .308 because it is a larger bullet and I am assuming that it is more stable in flight. I am also considering the .223 because it is slightly cheaper. Although it is less stable because it has less mass. Come to think of it, maybe it would be a good idea to learn how wind will affect a shot with the .223 because it has a grater effect on a smaller round. Am I talking out my sphincter here?
catnthehatt said:
Here is where I get lost in the science of shooting. How does the rate of twist affect the bullet while it travels through the air? How much is too much twist, what happens with too much twist. How about short barrels and too shallow a twist.
And barrels. I know that the longer the barrel more time the expanding gasses have to push the bullet to speed. Therefore you gain a higher muzzle velocity, but how much is too long of a barrel. All I have seen as the longest barrel length was the 24 inch, until Jay posted that the Savage 12FV has a 26 inch barrel.
Are there some books that CGN precision shooters might recommend?
Thanks for all the info guys.
Polish-Jack, If your only shooting at a range, barrel length tends to be less of a "problem" and you'll see guys shooting rifles with 26 inch or longer barrels. I chose the 26 inch barrel as it was cheaper and the exact same as the 24 inch barrel model 10fp with the exception of the finish on the bolt and barrel.
Generally, the longer and heavier the bullet you fire, the tighter the twist will have to be in the barrel. So, a 1 in 12 twist in a 223 will stabilize a 55 grain bullet no problem, but might have trouble shooting 62 grain projectiles...
Also, some 22-250 rifles have a 1 in 12 twist and because of the extra speed the bullet is sent out at, it CAN stabilize a heavier 22 centerfire bullet than the 223... A friend of mine shoots good groups with Sierra 65 grain soft points that he handloads into his 22-250 cases...
So, keep asking questions, I do think your on the right track with 308, I have a Savage 12FV in 223 and in 308, set up EXACTLY the same... Nice rifles with the new accutrigger...
Cheers
Jay
Generally, the longer and heavier the bullet you fire, the tighter the twist will have to be in the barrel. So, a 1 in 12 twist in a 223 will stabilize a 55 grain bullet no problem, but might have trouble shooting 62 grain projectiles...
Also, some 22-250 rifles have a 1 in 12 twist and because of the extra speed the bullet is sent out at, it CAN stabilize a heavier 22 centerfire bullet than the 223... A friend of mine shoots good groups with Sierra 65 grain soft points that he handloads into his 22-250 cases...
So, keep asking questions, I do think your on the right track with 308, I have a Savage 12FV in 223 and in 308, set up EXACTLY the same... Nice rifles with the new accutrigger...
Cheers
Jay
Velocity has nothing to do with stablizing heavier bullets. Rifle twist does.
Some .223's with a 1:9 twist will shoot 80 gr bullets very well some won't. Mine does, it it has a 28" Kreiger on it.
If you has a .223 that will shoot 80 gr bullets and a .308 that shoot 155 grain bullets, there will be very little difference in the amount of elevation and the amount of wind deflection. This is true out to 1000 yards. When I say very little I am talking 1-1 1/2 MOA or less with good loads.
When comparing to two side by side the .308 really does not have an advantage over the .223 with a fast twist barrel.
The .223 has lighter recoil, which will make it easier to shoot accurately. And if you are thinking about reloading the .223 is about half the price to feed.
If you are only shooting 50 rounds a year this may not be a factor. If you are shooting 1000 rounds or more a year the cost savings will buy you a new barrel in about 3 years :mrgreen:
That, Polish Jack is a good question. I don't think you can overspin a bullet.
Has any one here ever fired a 45 gr bullet out of a 1:7 or a 1: 8 twist barrel in .223? Or any very light bullet out of a very fast twist barrel?
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
Yup, some will and some won't.
Mine won't!
As far as the heavy and light bullet thing goes, we are getting a little sidetracked, as it is actually LONGER or SHORTER that makes the difference, not the mass.
We confuse these two a lot because longer bullets tend to be heavier, but such is not always the case.
And also, most on this board know of a certain thread a few weeks back that got pretty lively concerning the .223 versus the .308! :lol:
Maynard and I will stand by our guns on this, as we firmly believe that the .223 is totaly okay for shooting out to 1K!
It has to do with the recoil of a rifle while being shot in the prone position with a sling...
Cat
Mine won't!
As far as the heavy and light bullet thing goes, we are getting a little sidetracked, as it is actually LONGER or SHORTER that makes the difference, not the mass.
We confuse these two a lot because longer bullets tend to be heavier, but such is not always the case.
And also, most on this board know of a certain thread a few weeks back that got pretty lively concerning the .223 versus the .308! :lol:
Maynard and I will stand by our guns on this, as we firmly believe that the .223 is totaly okay for shooting out to 1K!
It has to do with the recoil of a rifle while being shot in the prone position with a sling...
Cat
The rpm that the bullet is spinning at is caused by the twist AND the velocity. If one cartridge pushes a bullet MUCH faster than another, it is possible that it could stabilize a bullet that the other can't with the same twist. You will see that for typical velocities it is much easier to increase rpms with a faster twist than more velocity.
ps Whatever you do, don't get a .223!
ps Whatever you do, don't get a .223!
Don't forget the glass. Skimping on the scope will make your life rough. That is not to say you need to drop $X000 at a US Optics shop, only that you should figure out how much you are willing to spend, then deduct about the cost of the rifle if you want a good scope new, or slightly less if you are willing to wait around for used. After that, the rest is rifle and ammo.
If you are not going to hunt, or shoot past 600(and most of the time <300) with it, I would recommend one of the 223s(10FP). The ammo will cost you less both as loaded ammo, or as handloads. Doesn't seam like much, but if you are going to shoot often, you can end up saving some big coin simply by finding supplies of decent ammo at a lower cost.
If you have cash left over, and are not happy with the stock, you can get it bedded into a McMillan stock.
That is my take on it, hope it was some help.
If you are not going to hunt, or shoot past 600(and most of the time <300) with it, I would recommend one of the 223s(10FP). The ammo will cost you less both as loaded ammo, or as handloads. Doesn't seam like much, but if you are going to shoot often, you can end up saving some big coin simply by finding supplies of decent ammo at a lower cost.
If you have cash left over, and are not happy with the stock, you can get it bedded into a McMillan stock.
That is my take on it, hope it was some help.
Cat, Have tried the 75 gr A-Max or BTHP or the 77 gr SMK's?
This may be true, but I don't think you could get enough velocity out of most standard cases to stablize much heavier bullets.
Take the 22-250 for example. You would not be able to push it fast enough with an 80 gr bullet in a 1:14 twist to stablize it. However with the lower velocity out of a .223 with a fast twist. say 1:8 or 1:7 there is no problem.
You are correct when you say " for typical velocities it is much easier to increase rpms with a faster twist than more velocity."
With out trying to get too side-tracked here. Bullet design also has something to do with the bullet stablizing. I loaded up some 175 gr SGK's for my buddy,s 7X57.
Only 3 out of the 5 hit the target at 50 yards, all keyholed. This tells me the twist is way to slow for 175 gr bullets. Just for ####s and giggles I tried some 175 gr round nose bullets. These big ugly bullets shot point of aim with three shots touching. No key holes.
Richard338, I am with John, please do tell, "Why not"
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Polish Jack, let's try and answer your question directly and forget about the only two cartridges in the world for a sec.
For the best bang vs dollars spent, the FV series is my favorite. Stocks are very useable and with the new accutrigger, a nice cheap set up. Mechanically, all Savage rifles of the same dimensions are the same. The big difference is the stock and exterior finish (blue or stainless). Start with the plastic stock that comes with the rifle. Very good shooting can come from this. If needed, bedding and opening up the forend solves all stock issues. You can always change stocks at a later time for less then buying factory.
The heavy barrel will help reduce recoil, max the cartridge used and heat up slower allowing for more trigger time between cooling.
I would stick with the standard two piece Weaver base and Burris Sig rings with inserts. All you will ever need.
Now the touchy topic. The 223 is a great cartridge and will serve you very well. Between the 308 and 223, I go 223 (ballistically identical). Now if you want to up the ballistic performance, then look at the 243 and match bullets. Head and shoulders above the other two. For middle ground, the 22.250 is nice out to 600yds with 55gr match bullets.
Downside for both the 243 and 22.250 is faster barrel wear. Approx half as much as the 223/308. If you plan on shooting lots, then the 223 is tops by a large margin.
In time, you can explore all the different cartridges out there. You can also swap different stocks if that is your thing. However, the plain jane 12FV heavy barrel in 223 will give you lots of trigger time which is so important to learning how to shoot. And trigger time is what helps you become a precision shooter - not gear.
Now to get the most out of your rifle, handloading is a given. There is lots of info on how to do this properly so do a search. Only thing I can suggest is get a Lee Deluxe die set with the collet neck sizer. Will help you make match ammo.
optics of course is the next question. Again, lots to read about. No shortage of good scopes in the exchange forum too (hint, hint, hint). If you want a super priced 223 target rifle, look up my stuff in the exchange forum (more hint, hint, hint).
Enjoy your quest...
Jerry
For the best bang vs dollars spent, the FV series is my favorite. Stocks are very useable and with the new accutrigger, a nice cheap set up. Mechanically, all Savage rifles of the same dimensions are the same. The big difference is the stock and exterior finish (blue or stainless). Start with the plastic stock that comes with the rifle. Very good shooting can come from this. If needed, bedding and opening up the forend solves all stock issues. You can always change stocks at a later time for less then buying factory.
The heavy barrel will help reduce recoil, max the cartridge used and heat up slower allowing for more trigger time between cooling.
I would stick with the standard two piece Weaver base and Burris Sig rings with inserts. All you will ever need.
Now the touchy topic. The 223 is a great cartridge and will serve you very well. Between the 308 and 223, I go 223 (ballistically identical). Now if you want to up the ballistic performance, then look at the 243 and match bullets. Head and shoulders above the other two. For middle ground, the 22.250 is nice out to 600yds with 55gr match bullets.
Downside for both the 243 and 22.250 is faster barrel wear. Approx half as much as the 223/308. If you plan on shooting lots, then the 223 is tops by a large margin.
In time, you can explore all the different cartridges out there. You can also swap different stocks if that is your thing. However, the plain jane 12FV heavy barrel in 223 will give you lots of trigger time which is so important to learning how to shoot. And trigger time is what helps you become a precision shooter - not gear.
Now to get the most out of your rifle, handloading is a given. There is lots of info on how to do this properly so do a search. Only thing I can suggest is get a Lee Deluxe die set with the collet neck sizer. Will help you make match ammo.
optics of course is the next question. Again, lots to read about. No shortage of good scopes in the exchange forum too (hint, hint, hint). If you want a super priced 223 target rifle, look up my stuff in the exchange forum (more hint, hint, hint).
Enjoy your quest...
Jerry
Well here is my 2cents!
You want to shoot long range?(600/1000yds)
You buy a rem 700p in 308, you put a 20moa rail on it.
Why a rail? because you will own more than 1 rifle and scope and this system will allow you to switch back an forth, giving you more bang for your $$$$$.
Adjust the trigger and torque the stock, and voila your ready to start!
Ammo is simple, reload some 155 scenar lapua with lapua brass/varget/cci BR primers and push this package at 2900fps (SAFELY!!!)
The above components are easy to find, and the load does not have to be tuned for change in the temperature.
The 155 scenar cannot be beat by any other 308 bullets, and definetly not a 223.
The ballistic coefficient is .508, and at 2900fps...
need I say more?
5rnds at 300yds
You want to shoot long range?(600/1000yds)
You buy a rem 700p in 308, you put a 20moa rail on it.
Why a rail? because you will own more than 1 rifle and scope and this system will allow you to switch back an forth, giving you more bang for your $$$$$.
Adjust the trigger and torque the stock, and voila your ready to start!
Ammo is simple, reload some 155 scenar lapua with lapua brass/varget/cci BR primers and push this package at 2900fps (SAFELY!!!)
The above components are easy to find, and the load does not have to be tuned for change in the temperature.
The 155 scenar cannot be beat by any other 308 bullets, and definetly not a 223.
The ballistic coefficient is .508, and at 2900fps...
need I say more?
5rnds at 300yds
take that same 22/250 and open the neck up for a 6mm bullet, chamber to suit naturally and you can continue from 500 right out to 1000... you aren't give up much including barrell wear.
shot it for a couple years, less recoil, less powder and a little better bullet weight than the .223 if you're a little unsure about your ability in the wind with the .223 this could be a consideration.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
The orig post was for a factory rifles so didn't include any wildcats. Just off the rack.
Oh, the new 22 cal match bullets will equal the 155gr Scenars and with a nice long barrel, equal the velocity safely. Actually, nether is safe as defined by SAAMI but bolts don't stick in most well made rifles.
For a while even hodgson listed some extreme velocities with the 308 and 155gr bullets. how about 3000fps with the then new lots of Varget? now look at where they are...2800 to 2850fps max.
Just look at the large numbers shooting service rifles in the US. The 308 rarely does well anymore. For paper punching, why put up with all that extra recoil and barrel heat.
Jerry
Oh, the new 22 cal match bullets will equal the 155gr Scenars and with a nice long barrel, equal the velocity safely. Actually, nether is safe as defined by SAAMI but bolts don't stick in most well made rifles.
For a while even hodgson listed some extreme velocities with the 308 and 155gr bullets. how about 3000fps with the then new lots of Varget? now look at where they are...2800 to 2850fps max.
Just look at the large numbers shooting service rifles in the US. The 308 rarely does well anymore. For paper punching, why put up with all that extra recoil and barrel heat.
Jerry
