New to reloading

[Mount Sweetness]

Which do you recommend...Lee or rcbs kit?

 

[redman]

1.) Shell holder - is it device that you set on the press to allow you to push a case into and pull out of a die. If you don't have one you aren't going to be able to reload. Many cases share case heads (i.e. 222 Rem/223 Rem) but if you are reloading a .308 and then a .223 you need to change the shell holder so that the case can be pushed into and more importantly pulled out of the die.

2.) S-Type and Competition are both Match Dies. As for you and your buddy sharing reloading stuff - this wasn't mentioned earlier so I would recommend you both share the dies you get as both of you are shooting the same calibre (.308 Win) As you are sharing recommend you get the Competition die. Once you set the die - write down the setting/bushing you are using and you are golden. The bushing is what does the neck sizing so you there is no performance difference between the Comp/S-type die but simply the ease of setup/repeatability of settings.

My understanding is that I need both the seater die and the sizing die, correct? And these can be bought in a set, right? So first I'd use the sizing die to resize the used casing, then I'd trim/camfer/deburr, and do the other steps, then I'd use the seating die to seat the bullet in the casing; is that on the mark?

3.) Redleg is referring to the fact that most boltactions (turn bolts) turn the bolt head as it is going into the chamber. This "camming" action provides extra leverage in pushing cartridges into the chamber. So if you don't Full Length Re-size then in your particular rifle you may encounter difficulty in having the cartridge go in/seat. If you are using brass fired only in your rifle you shouldn't have this problem - regular trimming and not mixing brass from your buddies rifle will ensure that you are good.

4.) Competition Seater is the type of seating die I recommend - It screws into the press and allows you to seat bullets.

5.) You need a funnel because the pan holds the powder and without a funnel you will spill powder everywhere. Trust me you need one.

6.) Sizing Wax - a type of lubricant to help the re-sizing process. There is a great deal of force involved in re-shaping a brass case. If you don't use a lubricant you will have the case stuck in the die (NOT FUN).

Oh... Is this just case resizing lubrincat, like Lee commonly offers?

7.) Yes - burrs form on brass when you cut it hence you need to clean them off.

8.) "turf" is slang for toss in garbage. Yes you want to seat primers yourself - no you don't want to automate this step. Keep in mind that the first thing your gun does is ignite the primer. It is critical that primers are seated properly so you have consistent ignition. This isn't hard and is fairly quick with a hand priming tool. Once you are comfortable you can prime 3-5 cases/minute

OK; would the Lee Auto Prime Hand Priming Tool be OK for this?

9.) RCBS Primer pocket uniformer can be used in a hand tool (handle), power drill, or the case prep center. It is your call on what you want to spend. I would say get the hand tool or try the drill before you spend the big bucks on the case prep center. A lot of what you will decide to buy will be determined by what you can tolerate/want sped up during the reloading process.

Honestly, I'd love to make any of the tasks efficient; I was thinking of going with this: RCBS Case Prep Centre with the 3-way trim/chamfer/deburr tool, primer pocket uniformer and flash hole uniformer... Is this a good/efficient way to go? Much like with my rifle, I want to do this once and do it right - since we're splitting the cost, I don't mind spending extra to save time (which is money, anyway!). Note that I don't want to splurge, just to do it right. If I can get the consistency I get from factory match ammo, I'm plenty happy... I'm no BR shooter, so I'm not looking to get that extra edge that will not be (personally) worth the extra investment to acheive.

10.) Liquid is not too bad messiness wise - it washes off and I wrap the brass in a towel. Yes you always have to check your cases but punching out media from flash holes is more tedious then visually inspecting.

11.) Those cases will all work but be aware that if you ever change any component (bullet, primer, or CASE) you need to work up a new load. That is why I recommend you stick with one brand of case otherwise you need to load powder on the lower end of the velocity spectrum or you risk damaging your rifle or even hurting yourself. Never mix components (i.e. use Federal primers, differing powders, cases, bullets) and use the max loads - you will need to work your way up to them.

12.) Air dry for about a day. You can go less if you really need to reload but I find I am cyclical in my reloading one day is cleaning brass on 1 calibre and then priming another calibre, etc. You can do the same thing if you buy enough brass (i.e. 500+) Do groups of 200 in one station.

13.) Get a COMPETENT Gunsmith with a good reputation and getting a cerrocast is very simple. The actual job is not hard but I don't recommend that you do it yourself.

I'll have to sort through the local clowns and find a good one I suppose.

From you second post:

14.) Neck turning is used to uniform the brass (why I recommended that you get Lapua or Norma Brass) it may be required on Lapua/Norma brass but not the extent that Win/Rem would need. It ensures that bullets are centered in the neck and there isn't excessive brass on one side vs the other.

Is the neck turner something that would go on the Case Preparation kit above, or in the press? Or is it a separate device altogether?

15.) Neck sizer - he is referring to the bushing (Neck Bushing) that sizes the outside of the neck (and the expander ball the pulls out from inside the neck - sizes the brass from inside the neck). Basically, he is saying don't use expander as this is the device that causes the brass to stretch and isn't really necessary - neck tension refers to how tight the neck is and how much pressure is created when firing the cartridge (if it is tighter you will see more pressure less tight less pressure). Neck button is on the de-priming portion of the die (If you look at the sizing die there is a little rod that pops the primer out) he is saying get a smaller one that doesn't actually size on the way out.

OK, so neck sizing is making the outer diameter of the neck smaller (since it expanded after being fired), right? So I won't get the expander, but is the neck button something that will already come with my press/dies or is this yet another component to buy?

16.) Powder charge - how much powder is in the case (measured in grains)

17.) IMR 4064 is a good powder for .308. Gand is mentioning some of the best powders to use (Viht is produced by Norma, Varget is Hodgon but is temperature insensitive) That being said IMR 4064 used to be considered "THE" powder for the .308 Win.

18.) 3000 rounds is a ball park figure and Gand is referring to match grade accuracy. It isn't like one day your rifle will shoot .5"@100yds and then bang 3"@100yds. You will see a gradual increase in the size of your groups. I would say if you aren't shooting matches against top competitors and wanting to hit small things at long distance you will see more in the number of 6000 rounds before your groups will be too large for long distance shooting. Changing barrels is part of shooting so you might as well get used to that idea. Even at 6000 rounds I doubt you will need to change a barrel more then 1/2-3 years.

19.) Yes and no regarding pressure. Your rifle shouldn't be pushing a bullet a magnum velocities but unless you have a chronograph you won't know for sure. Pressure signs are discussed in every reloading manual read it carefully.

20.) SD- Standard Deviation - how much your shots are varying from your mean velocity shot to shot. He is saying 100yds won't give you a good indication of LR shooting only LR shooting will. A lot of guys will say my rifle shoots .5 MOA at 100yds so that means I am able to shoot .5 MOA at 500yds and 1000yds. That is not true at all as loads will have varying performance at longer range.

21.) Yes - higher pressure is not good for your throat. Throad erosion can't be helped but more powder does mean faster erosion. I would say don't worry about that kind of stuff and shoot your rifle until the accuracy isn't there and change the barrel and shoot some more. You will find that time will have passed you by faster before the money to change barrels becomes an issue.

Thank you Glock for answering his questions for me. And I agree with what you say, too.

Redman asked "Do I need to really increase the pressure that much, i.e. shoot my ammo real hot?" I was confused at this question, becasue I did not advocate loading hot. But it occured to me that my notes did not specify I was talking about the the 308 loaded with 155 gr bullets. If you are thinking 168's, then yes, those would be too hot.

And yes, IMR4064 is an excellent powder, but seldom recommneded outside of target rifle circles because it meters poorly. if you are weighing every charge, it is very nice.

Red, I think you should find someone who loads who can help you set up and get started. Loading is a simple thing to do, after someone shows you.

As a general rule, the better load will be the hotter one? I ask this because I notice you have to work up a load until you see signs of over pressure... Can a load be good without being as close as the max my rifle can tolerate? Also, how would 168's be too hot? Is it because more powder would be needed to propel the heavier bullet (vs. 155gr.)?

Thanks again for all the help! Looking forward to your answers.

 

[Glock4ever]

1.) Yes but the Redding Competition Set breaks the re-sizing dies into two seperate dies (Bushing Neck Sizing and Body Sizing) You will use the neck sizing everytime and the body sizing only when you need it. All other dies put these together into a Full Length Re-sizing die. It isn't good to FL resize each time as the brass will wear out fast and you are only using the brass in the same rifle. However you can not screw the die all the way in and only neck size if you want to save on money or just buy an RCBS Neck Size die on top of the FL die. Sets can be comprised of: 1x FL sizer + 1x Seater or 1x Neck sizer and 1x seater or 1x FL sizer 1x Neck Sizer and 1x Seater.

2.) Yes.

3.) Yes

4.) Case prep center doesn't trim to be clear you will need the case prep center and a trimmer. If you are doing trimming operations the 3-way cutter/neck uniforming only works on the trimmer and the primer pocket uniforming/case neck cleaning/etc are done on the Case Prep Center.

5.) Agreed.

6.) See #4.

7.) No, Neck sizing will work both the inside and outside of the neck. Gand is referring to changing the actual decapping pin assembly (sizing button) to a smaller size so it doesn't work the inside of the neck as it isn't required. It is provided on the die so that if you have one messed up piece of brass or are re-sizing brass from on caliber to another that the neck doesn't buckle into another shape and isn't perfectly round. It is not another component to buy, based on your experience level I would recommend you stick with factory equipment and learn and then adjust to what your preferences are.

8.) Hotter loads aren't better. You need to determine what you want to achieve with your loads. You indicated that you want to achieve the same as FGMM - that isn't a hot load. I recommend that you go with accuracy over velocity but that is your own personal decision.

9.) Based on your questions, I really recommend that you buy a reloading manual. Based on your current ammunition preferences: I would recommend that you look at Hornady's Manual (2 books but really worth it), Sierra's, Speers, or the Lee manual (1 book but it is the most inexpensive one). You really need to do some reading on this subject as a lot of your questions will be answered in the books.

 

[redman]

1.) Yes but the Redding Competition Set breaks the re-sizing dies into two seperate dies (Bushing Neck Sizing and Body Sizing) You will use the neck sizing everytime and the body sizing only when you need it. All other dies put these together into a Full Length Re-sizing die. It isn't good to FL resize each time as the brass will wear out fast and you are only using the brass in the same rifle. However you can not screw the die all the way in and only neck size if you want to save on money or just buy an RCBS Neck Size die on top of the FL die. Sets can be comprised of: 1x FL sizer + 1x Seater or 1x Neck sizer and 1x seater or 1x FL sizer 1x Neck Sizer and 1x Seater.

OK, so it'll take a few shots for a casing to become too large/deformed to fit in the chamber, so I needn't FL resize each time.

One thing I noticed: in the online store I looked at (Midway), the "Redding Competition Bushing 3-Die Neck Sizer Set 308 Winchester " product description says that bushings aren't included... Is this normal? Isn't the bushing supposed to be included? Do you know if it can be bought in a set?

2.) Yes.

3.) Yes

4.) Case prep center doesn't trim to be clear you will need the case prep center and a trimmer. If you are doing trimming operations the 3-way cutter/neck uniforming only works on the trimmer and the primer pocket uniforming/case neck cleaning/etc are done on the Case Prep Center.

Hmmm... This guy put a trimmer, chamferer and deburrer on the machine and seemed to make it work (see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d81l62J1VmI). Why wouldn't the 3-way trimmer fit? Are they just not compatible? Also, isn't neck cleaning done anyway while soaking in the cleaning fluid you mentioned?

5.) Agreed.

6.) See #4.

7.) No, Neck sizing will work both the inside and outside of the neck. Gand is referring to changing the actual decapping pin assembly (sizing button) to a smaller size so it doesn't work the inside of the neck as it isn't required. It is provided on the die so that if you have one messed up piece of brass or are re-sizing brass from on caliber to another that the neck doesn't buckle into another shape and isn't perfectly round. It is not another component to buy, based on your experience level I would recommend you stick with factory equipment and learn and then adjust to what your preferences are.

8.) Hotter loads aren't better. You need to determine what you want to achieve with your loads. You indicated that you want to achieve the same as FGMM - that isn't a hot load. I recommend that you go with accuracy over velocity but that is your own personal decision.

I'm with you; since I won't be going beyond 600 yds, which is well within effective range of a .308, I don't think I'll need to load for a faster more far reaching trajectory.

9.) Based on your questions, I really recommend that you buy a reloading manual. Based on your current ammunition preferences: I would recommend that you look at Hornady's Manual (2 books but really worth it), Sierra's, Speers, or the Lee manual (1 book but it is the most inexpensive one). You really need to do some reading on this subject as a lot of your questions will be answered in the books.

Listen, you've been of the upmost help - I know the manuals will no doubt clarify things, but I felt that my questions were too obscure/base and that I might not have found the info there. I was recommended the "Lyman 49th Edition Reloading Handbook" in this thread early on - how does it compare to the others you mentioned?

Once I get the final responses to my above questions, I'll update my "shopping list" with items for each step of the reloading process, and hopefully someone can confirm that all is well.

Many thanks to all you fine folks and especially Glock4ever; I'm really looking forwarding to setting up shop and beginning to reload!

 

[Ganderite]

Q: "Can a load be good without being as close as the max my rifle can tolerate? Also, how would 168's be too hot? Is it because more powder would be needed to propel the heavier bullet (vs. 155gr.)?"

No. What my notes said was this is the table of maximum velcocities. I was referring to the 155 bullet and meant that if the velicty is higher it is because the pressure is higher and probably too high.

Since the max pressure is a constant, a lighter bullet goes faster than a heavier one. So if you were to load 168's to 155 velocities, the pressure would be much too high.

 

[redman]

For sure, that's why I said "more powder would be needed to propel the heavier bullet"... (The law of conservation of energy would be violated if the same amount of powder could make the heavier bullet go as fast as the lighter one! ).

I actually tried lighter bullets (150gr) and my rifle didn't like them for some reason... Might be because they're shorter and they hit the rifling badly?

 

[Glock4ever]

Red:

First - I mention the reloading books not to blow you off but because once you read the history/process of reloading much of this will be clear. As for the Lyman manual - I haven't used it but really most of the manuals are good. I do recommend that you buy more then one (I have 3) as they are only recipes. Frequently I will take a particular bullet/powder combo and compare in the three books to figure out where the best starting charge is.

1.) Bushings don't come with the set because of the variance's in chamber/bullet/case. Redding has a link on their page to explain how to choose the right bushing which I won't go into here but as there is variation in necks you need to buy the appropriate bushing (as an example the neck on my .308 Win is .340" so I would want to get a .339" bushing yours may be .339") - trust me you don't want to buy a bunch (they aren't cheap) if you aren't going to use them.

2.) The case prep center can take any of the attachments but remember if you are using the 3-way cutter you don't want to trim by hand (i.e. hold the case over the trim center to trim) as you won't be able to ensure you are trimming to the right length (the trimmer has a collet that stops you from trimming too much) or evenly for that matter. As well, the case prep center was designed when before the 3 way trimmer was so it was designed with the idea that you would only be able to trim on you trimmer not chamfer and deburr. The case prep center is a nice tool but in my mind not really required. Once you get comfortable with case prep you will see why I say this. Neck cleaning is done by the liquid but the case prep center has a fancy-dancy brush that spins to do the same thing (why I believe this isn't a required tool)

3.) If you are loading for precision shooting sometimes you get lucky and get both high velocity (in comparison to factory) and accuracy. Some guys will play with components to achieve both accuracy and velocity. That is the beauty of reloading you can have your cake and eat it. The reason that I don't advise you get into doing this (having multiple components, charges, etc) is that for new guys - getting the basics is the most important. A lot of newbies aren't too good at organizing their notes/loads and end up screwing up a rifle or even hurting themselves - heck even experienced loaders that I know have mixed powders up and have damaged their rifles. Once you get confident at all stages of loading then start experimenting with new powders/bullets. As well having lots of components can be frustrating for a new loader if he doesn't hit a "magic" load right off; if you only have 1 variable to play with it makes load development that much easier.

4.) No worries on the help - I was a new loader once too and if the other guys didn't help me out I would still be buying factory and shooting a lot less. If I can offer one piece of advice that you take to heart - BE ORGANIZED - meticulous notes are a PITA but don't be one of those clowns that only writes a load down on the back of a cigarette pack. Buy a cheapo notebook and date/time everything you do - including Overall Length, Charges, Bullets, Lot Numbers you name it. It makes everything easier to repeat as well as forces you to get in the habit of checking everything that you are doing. I have over 6 differing powders and I ensure that everything is properly segregated nothing will ruin your day more then to have 46.5 gns of a pistol propellent in your .308 Win It may not blow you up but it will sure ruin your rifle. Let us know how your first loads go down.

 

[redman]

Glock4ever, I wasn't insinuating that you were blowing me off, just wanted to clarify why I felt some of my questions wouldn't likely be found in the manual, since a reloading catalogue might have been more appropriate along with several calls to company reps . It's all good.

Speaking of which, here's one more question, which I believe will settle my final doubts: OK, I agree that the RCBS 3-way trimmer head + motorized trimmer tool is the way I'll go. But what about preparing the primer pockets & flash hole? Obviously, I'm not going to buy the case-prep centre just for doing those steps... Is there any motorized/efficient way of doing this step similar to how the guy was doing it in the vid? Is the step necessary for putting in new primers?

Thanks again; I'm pretty meticulous, I just hope the equipment will do as much of its part as I will.

 

[Glock4ever]

Primer pocket uniformer - use it with a cordless drill. That is what I do if I want to speed up the process - get a thread protector or you will strip the threads.

Flash hole - deburrer - I don't motorize this portion - it is a quick twist with each case. Save yourself the money for the tool buy LAPUA brass. They drill their FH and you don't need to deburr. Much of the case prep can be circumvented by buying better brass. A lot of these tools were developed for when only crappy Remchester brass was available. I prefer to spend my money on better measuring devices (i.e. tricklers/scales/dies) then on case prep. I would advise you do the same.