New Winchester 1886 Rant

Slooshark1

Slooshark1

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So I ordered one of the SHOT Show Specials, the 1886 Short Rifle in 45-90 with the 20" barrel. Today it arrived and it's stamped on the barrel that's only for blackpowder, not smokeless. It doesn't say this anywhere on their website that it's a blackpowder only rifle. I told my dealer that I didn't want it based on that. He also didn't know that it was going to be a blackpowder only rifle. I was really hoping to load up some hot 45-90 loads and hammer down some moose or bears. What a disappointment.
 
Perhaps this is for nostalgia. I wouldn't be worried about loading it up. I had an original and loaded the heck out of it, can't see the metals in the new one being inferior but worth a bit of research first..
 
It might be worth finding out why it is stamped like that. Is it because of the twist, or is it because of weak steel?
 
You didn't happen to order this from a Calgary area store did you?

I ordered that exact rifle for a guy when I worked at a certain store in the Calgary area, I had no clue they stamped that. I'm now very curious to see if it's no more than a stamp or if it's a real warning.
 
It is because there are no SAAMI specs for the 45-90. All it means is that there has not been much for load development for the .45-90 (and having an original '86 in .45-90 I can tell you there is no "current" published load data on it from powder manufacturers/Lyman etc etc) and therefore they have to stamp them "blackpowder only"...essentially for the lawyers.

In essence it is a warning to YOU the shooter to do your own research into the rifle & cartridge and use caution.

My original '86 (shipped in 1889) does very well within Trapdoor pressure limits. It is a heckuva lot of fun to shoot.
 
Slooshark1 said:
Would it be as strong as the 1886 in 45-70?
Click to expand...

Same action and probably bbl just a longer chamber in the same bbl, I would still check with Winchester. I loaded my original ELW to the point of discomfort and never did get to a maximum load but it exceeded anything I did even with the 45-70. There is modern data available for the 45-90.
 
Well I just phoned Winchester and they told me that the new 1886 rifles, both 45-70 and 45-90 should not be used with any ammunition exceeding blackpowder pressures, since they're both originally blackpowder cartridges. I'm shocked as I've been shooting some stout loads out of my 45-70 without any consequences. I'm confused. I thought these new 1886s were supposed to be able to handle higher pressures.
 
I suspect Winchester's recommendation is CYA. The SAAMI pressure for .45-70 is only 28,000 CUP and they are not going to recommend ammunition for which there is no industry standard.

I see no reason why new 1886s would not be able to handle "modern" loads in either .45-70 or .45-90. Keep in mind that the SAMMI pressure for the .348 Winchester is 40,000 CUP and the Model 71 is essentially an 1886 action with improved (by 1930s standards) metallurgy.
 
Your new Miroku built 1886 will handle pressures to 40,000 psi without difficulty.
Your shoulder will not be happy about it though, and you will greatly reduce case
life for reloads. Find a good load that stays below 35,000 for jacketed bullets
and 20,000 psi. or below for cast slugs(For best accuracy) and you'll be fine.
:)
 
x2. The '86 has a VERY strong lock up system (arguably better than Marlin) and with modern steels, should not be an issue. Case capacity is essentially equivalent to a .458 Win Mag I wouldn't recommend taking your loads too far but the pressure information on the .458 should help you gauge where you are at.

As someone else pointed out the old Lyman manuals did list the .45-90 just use CAUTION as some of the powders have changed composition over the years....read read read and in the end it is your decision ;) my own CYA aka "Blackpowder Only" stamp there

Happy shootin

SHELL SHUCKER said:
Your new Miroku built 1886 will handle pressures to 40,000 psi without difficulty.
Your shoulder will not be happy about it though, and you will greatly reduce case
life for reloads. Find a good load that stays below 35,000 for jacketed bullets
and 20,000 psi. or below for cast slugs(For best accuracy) and you'll be fine.
:)
Click to expand...
 
Sloo
the reason that they roll stamp it "for black powder only", is that there are no Sammi specs for the 45-90. Purely a liability thing, to cover their ass if you blow it up with a stupily hot load.
 
There are quite a few 45-90 loads in the 4th Edition of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. They're all under 27K CUP, but a 500 gr bullet at almost 1800 fps is not a powder-puff load.
 
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