Newb Question after range report

[Idcurrie]

Sorry for all the newbie questions.

This is my first visit to the range with my handloaded 30'06.

I was shooting them at Phoenix so only 40 yards (or less).

I noticed that the 168gr balistic silvertips which are a factory load from Winchester are shooting higher than my handloads. At 100 yards, this difference would only be larger.

They're even hitting higher than the 165gr balistic tips which are lighter...

Normally, my first reaction would be to load my handloads hotter to meet the factory load's point of impact.

The problem is that I have them loaded at maximum according to the Nosler manual. There are other powders I can use but none of them yield appreciably better muzzle velocity.

So if I'm maxed out on my hand load and still not achieving the flat shooting of a factory load what do I do? Do I just ignore the manual and start loading hotter? Obviously that's what Winchester has done with their factory loads...

 

[mmattockx]

So if I'm maxed out on my hand load and still not achieving the flat shooting of a factory load what do I do? Do I just ignore the manual and start loading hotter? Obviously that's what Winchester has done with their factory loads...

First, testing at 40yds is almost useless. You need to get out to at least 100yds and 200 or 300 is even better.

Second, what were you shooting off of for a rest? At 40yds those groups should all be really tiny and it looks like you may not have had a solid enough rest. At that close range, parallax in your scope may have been causing issues as well.

Third, what is happening is not muzzle velocity getting you, but barrel harmonics. As the loads change, the barrel whips differently and the muzzle is in a different location at the point of the bullet leaving the barrel. If the muzzle is pointing down when the bullet leaves, then the POI will be lower. You simply adjust your scope to put the POI where you want it once you have found the load your rifle likes.

Trajectory is determined by muzzle velocity and bullet BC, not the POI. What you want to look for (when you get to testing at longer ranges) is loads with the least amount of vertical stringing, as these are typically the most consistent shot to shot and yield the best accuracy. Don't fret getting another 25-50fps, consistency and accuracy are kings here.


Mark

 

[Idcurrie]

The scope doesn't have an adjustable parallax so I can barely see the cross hairs and the parallax is horrible.

You do realize that those are 5 shot groups, right? Except the factory load. there are 20 rounds in that group... With my caliper I measure the accubond at 0.53" group and the balistic tip at 0.987" including the flyer which I knew was my fault. The other 4 shots are 0.447" measured center to center. Boy some people are hard to please!

Anyway, the barrel harmonics thing is interesting. Are you sure that's what is causing the factory load to hit so much higher than the hand loads?

 

[Idcurrie]

 

[sunray]

"...ignore the manual...Obviously that's what Winchester has done..." Absolutely not.
"...to meet the factory load's point of impact..." Forget the factory POI. You'll have to sight in again with any different ammo. 38 yards is far too close. Get a group off a solid rest, at 100, first then adjust the sights.
"...can barely see the cross hairs..." What scope at what magnification?

 

[mmattockx]

The scope doesn't have an adjustable parallax so I can barely see the cross hairs and the parallax is horrible.

Extend your range and the groups probably won't open up much if you have that much parallax. 1/2" at 40yds is 2.5+" at 200yds, remember. I'm not knocking you, more pointing out that parallax may have been causing you issues.


Mark

 

[Idcurrie]

Thanks, Mark. I appreciate the tip. 2.5" at 200 yards is plenty fine for moose and deer hunting! Keep in mind that my 30'06 cost me $299 brand new (savage edge). I can't really complain, especially if they don't open up much as you suggest. I've shot the rifle at 100 yards before and it's around 1 MOA with factory ammo.

Sunray, The scope is a Bushnell elite 3200. I have two in fact. They both behave the same indoors at 40 yards. The parallax is set at 100 yards and is non-adjustable.

Sunray, why do you say not to load hotter than the manual? My father has loading manuals that are 20-30 years older than the modern ones. They all have hotter loads than the modern books...

Additionally, I've noticed that the maximum loads in the loading manuals are about 100fps slower than what federal claims to achieve with their factory loads in 30'06, and about 200fps slower than what Winchester claims to achieve with their factory loads in 223.

So obviously the reloading manuals have much softer loads than what federal and Winchester use. My question is, why?

 

[H4831]

"So obviously the reloading manuals have much softer loads than what federal and Winchester use. My question is, why?"

Firstly, you would have to chronograph the Federal and Winchester loads, to see if they actually are as fast as claimed. Most of those claimed speeds are exagerated, sometimes considerably.
Secondly, the older loading books did, indeed, show heavier loads than do most modern loading books. Those of us who cut our teeth on the old loading charts with heavier loads, will continue to use such loads, regardless what a modern book shows as "maximum."
Thirdly, in the real world, most rifle calibres shoot most accurately and most efficiently, when loaded full up to their advertised maximum loadings.
If a rifle won't do this, it is usually the fault of the rifle, usually because it is not bedded properly.

 

[Ganderite]

Advertized velocities are from factory test barrels, somewhat longer than your rifle.

Without a chrony you do not know how velocities compare. Elvevations mean nothing (unless you are at 600 yards).

Do not exceed the book loadings and work up to them, watching for pressures signs. Some rifle will not tolerate max loads. They may reach max velocity with less powder.

Shooting at 40 yards is a waste of time if you want to evaluate the results.

 

[Idcurrie]

Well, I've learned to think critically about what a loading manual says is the maximum load.

For example, the 49th edition Lymann loading manual says the max load for a 180gr bullet in a 30'06 with my powder is 46 grains. Nosler says it's 49. That's quite a difference! I used 49 and it was fine. Obviously the Lymann figure is SUPER conservative.

If I want to know what the REAL maximum load is, I have only to call my father and have him look in some of his 30 year old manuals.

It's fine to say 'don't exceed the manual' but that begs the question: which manual!?

 

[stubblejumper]

Do I just ignore the manual and start loading hotter? Obviously that's what Winchester has done with their factory loads...

The Winchester loads may be producing more velocity than your handloads, then again the handloads may be producing more velocity. The point of impact a 40 yards doesn't prove either case. It is quite common for more velocity to result in a lower point of impact at 100 yards, let alone at 40 yards.

 

[manitou210]

ID Currie don,t you be looking at your fathers old reloading manuals and comparing them to new ones and get in your head you can easly load 1.5grs to 3 or 4 grs more. with your 3006
If you load 1.5gr oo 2grs more with your 165gr Noslers and RL 17 that Savage just may blow appart and I am sure you won,t open the bolt with your hand and three grains more you may not find the bolt handle.That RL 17 really drives the 165gr bullets but man it spikes fast !!!
manitou

 

[junkdude]

So if I'm maxed out on my hand load and still not achieving the flat shooting of a factory load what do I do? Do I just ignore the manual and start loading hotter? Obviously that's what Winchester has done with their factory loads...

Winchester has their own recipe and likely own custom powder blend, you can not compare it your manual. The chamber pressure profile will likely be different from the one from your load.

IMHO you should tread carefully around max load ranges, I have several old manuals with higher max loads but I take the with a grain of salt, the science, technology and understanding has improved in the last 30 years.

As others have mentioned your distance is far to short to determine anything.

Simply increasing the velocity will not improve the accuracy, it's all about finding a sweet spot load that matches your gun harmonics. Throwing out the manual will only increase the probability your gun pressure limits are exceeded and it will end up in many pieces spread about the room with parts if it embedded in your body. Be safe is the most important thing, these are BIG pressures that are being developed inside the chamber.

 

[IMagius]

Do I just ignore the manual and start loading hotter? Obviously that's what Winchester has done with their factory loads...

You can ignore all the data in all the books if you want ... just please let me know if you do so I can avoid beign at the range that day ... watching a gun explode in someone's hands is not my idea of a good time.

Not neccessarily what Winchester has done. Typically, they would be testing their loads with a barrel & chamber that is "perfect" for that round.

Also, you (me, or anyone else) have no idea what powder they are using, which primers, etc.. They are also using Non-Fired Brass.

There are so many subtle differences when it comes to reloading that comparing the same "recipe" between two people with different guns of the same caliber will usually generate very noticable differences. A few thousands difference in seating depth, case sizing & trimming, etc can all play a factor.

Also, 40 Yards is really only usefull to see if a scope is hitting the paper. If you want to develop a load for your gun, you need to start at 100, then in the case of your rifle, stretch that out to 200 after you find something you like at 100.

It's fine to say 'don't exceed the manual' but that begs the question: which manual!?

Doesn't matter Pick a manual you like and go with it. Just remember that 30 or 40 years ago, testing and measuring methods were nowhere near as technical as they are today - for all we know some of those older books have loads listed that may actually be a grain or two higher than what newer metalurgy & pressure testing deems safe. It's your gun, in your hands ... only you can determine what you are willing to do (experiment) with it.

If I'm developing a load, I'll check a few manuals, then take the average Max Load for the powder of my choice. I'll then usually back it down a fair bit.

In your case (two max loads shown at 46 & 49), I'd pick 47.5 as a "practical max" with 49 as a "full max".
From there, I'd probably start at about 42.5 grains, and load 3 of those, then 3 at 43, 3 @ 43.5, etc.. up to 47.5. IF the range is a long ways away, I'd load up to the 49 grain limit just to have them with me.

From there, start shooting @ 100 yards ... When developing, I like to leave at least a minute or two between shots with the chamber open. I watch each group for tightness and whatnot, and inspect the brass for any unusual signs.

IF I find a spot that seem to get a tight group (ex: 46.5) and then as I continue up to my "pratical max" load and see the groups expanding again, I'll skip even firing the > max loads and just pull them and reload them at home later.

After that, for a gun in your caliber, it's time to stretch it's legs ... if 46.5 was the tightest at 100, I'll load up a few at 46, 46.2, 46.5, 46.7 & 47 and try those at 200 Yards.

For each day out with your test loads, I'd also suggest ensuring you are using "equal" brass each time as well ... avoid mixing once, twice and higher fired brass in the same "development" shoot. And dont' check a few for neck size, case stretch, etc ... what you do to one, you need to do to all ... this is a science, and the attention to detail si what will get you to a result that will be well worth the effort you put into it.

And of course, you really want to do all of this on days with zero wind ... no sense confusing the matter

A lot of this is what I consider "basic common sense" as it is pretty much the first of what I was taught by my uncle when I was introduced to reloading 25 years ago ... I only repeat it now because I tend to worry when people openly question the validity of exceeding "published limits". Unless you have years of expereince at loading and know exactly what to look for (which I doubt since you named yourself a Newbie), I'd suggest that the "book limit" (of whichever book you chose to use) should be considered "Law" if you want to come home with all your fingers attached.

Good luck! Happy Loading! Hoep you find a load that works for your gun.

 

[ultimate_monkey]

Winchester has their own recipe and likely own custom powder blend, you can not compare it your manual. The chamber pressure profile will likely be different from the one from your load.

IMHO you should tread carefully around max load ranges, I have several old manuals with higher max loads but I take the with a grain of salt, the science, technology and understanding has improved in the last 30 years.

As others have mentioned your distance is far to short to determine anything.

Simply increasing the velocity will not improve the accuracy, it's all about finding a sweet spot load that matches your gun harmonics. Throwing out the manual will only increase the probability your gun pressure limits are exceeded and it will end up in many pieces spread about the room with parts if it embedded in your body. Be safe is the most important thing, these are BIG pressures that are being developed inside the chamber.

x2! to all of that

gotta remember, in a 30'06 your looking at about 50 000ish PSI when that round goes off, sure another grain or two doesnt seem like much, but thats gonna be 8000+psi per gain..

 

[Idcurrie]

Thanks for the advice guys.

I'm not using RL 17, as someone suggested. I'm using IMR 4320. It was what was both available and listed by Nosler in their manual.

According to Nosler, they say that 49 is the max load for their 180gr bullets. There is an asterix (*) beside that but no explanation of what that means.

I have successfully fired 6 rounds which were loaded at 48.5gr. I dropped down .5 grains just in case my cheap lee scale is off a little. All 6 rounds look good with no signs of pressure. The primers are not backing out.

I still have 44 rounds loaded like this to fire!

The 49th edition Lymann, though, says that a 180gr sierra SBT (not what I'm firing) can only be fired with 46.3 grains which they claim yields 49,900PSI. Do you think I'm pushing my luck in firing off my remaining 48.5gr rounds?

I did notice something worth mentioning. In this Lymann book, the only 30'06 load they have with a nosler bullet is the 165 grain ballistic tip. They show it using a whopping 52 grains of 4320! This seems odd to me because the Nosler site shows a maximum of 50 grains for that bullet!

So for 165gr ballistic tip, Lymann is using 2 grains more than nosler is yet for a sierra 180gr lymann is using 2.5 grains less than nosler. It`s very inconsistent.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that the different bullet design has an effect on the pressure. Does that make any sense

For what it`s worth, I`ve been seating the bullets as far out as possible while still being inside the total cartridge length in the hopes that it will help reduce pressure.

 

[Ganderite]

As it happens, 45 years ago I was working in the ballistic lab of CIL, testing ammunition.

The repeatbable quality of pressure barrels to day is better. The accuracy of a modern pzioelectic pressure barrel is so much more accurate and educational than the old cupper crushers I used that it is no wonder that loads have changed in the manuals.

the modern books are not 'conservative". They do not have any fudge factors. They are what they say they are - "Max" in the particular barrel they tested in. Your barrel is different for sure - but not necessarily in the right direction.

Factory ammo is not "max". I know. I used to make it. It is loaded to a specific target velocity so that you can expect similar results each time you buy it. The powder selected seldom has to develop max pressure to reach the target velocity. Pressures are typically 5,000 to 7,000 psi under max in the test barrel.

If you have a good rifle and an appropriate powder (say 4350 for a 180 gr bullet in your 30-06) you should be able to duplicate the factory velocty (using a Chrony). As explained above, even with the same velocity, the groups won't be at the same place on the target.

 

[Idcurrie]

Ganderite, can you please allucidate why the Lymann manual shows the use of far more grains when using a nosler bullet compared to the sierra bullet? For the nosler bullet it shows using 2gr more than nosler recommends and for the sierra bullet is shows 2.5gr less than nosler recommends at 180gr.

Why is that? Do the nosler bullets somehow cause less pressure to be formed? Or is there an error in their methodology as it's certainly not consistent...

 

[junkdude]

So for 165gr ballistic tip, Lymann is using 2 grains more than nosler is yet for a sierra 180gr lymann is using 2.5 grains less than nosler. It`s very inconsistent.

Generally as the bullet weight goes up, the powder weight goes down. This is to keep the pressures down as a heavier bullet takes longer accelerate.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that the different bullet design has an effect on the pressure. Does that make any sense

Makes perfect sense, the different bullet design and shape affect the amount of bearing surface and friction of the bullet traveling down the barrel; hence two bullets of the same weight but different design can have completely different load data.

For what it`s worth, I`ve been seating the bullets as far out as possible while still being inside the total cartridge length in the hopes that it will help reduce pressure.

Take an unprimed cartridge and seat a bullet in it as you are doing. Then take a permanent marker and color the bullet (the projectile) completely. Carefully chamber the round and then eject. Look for the beginning of the rifling marks on the bullet, these are the lands. If you seat the bullet too far out and have it jammed into the lands you will cause an INCREASE in pressure, not a decrease. Many guns like the bullet just touching the lands, others do not and like bit of a jump. Hunting rounds often stay away from the lands as there is always a chance that the bullet will get stuck and when ejecting a live round the bullet will stay behind... now there will be an obstruction in the barrel.

Just a suggestion, get a good manual and read it front to back - then read it again. Believe what is written, it's all there for a very good reason; generally because the info was discovered the hard way. Reloading is not like putting together a BBQ where the manual only needs to followed when you are running into trouble; when you run into trouble with reloading it may be too late.

 

[TwoTone]

...If you seat the bullet too far out and have it jammed into the lands you will cause an INCREASE in pressure, not a decrease...

This is oft parroted rhetoric that everybody 'know's.

It's a nice theory but it's not true. I've never seen it make a practical difference in max loads. Others here have observed the same thing.

Many will scoff at this and go on making dramatic warnings about touching the lands and rifles blowing up. That's fine, I'll continue to enjoy a full range of handloading activities without the Chicken Littles of the world bothering me.

And another thing...
How many guns blew up with loads from the old manuals? Ever seen or heard of one? Come on guys, there's lawyers and accountants everywhere now, they're worse than bedbugs.

I don't know how some of you guys manage to handload or shoot at all with all the worrying you do about things that aren't dangerous. Save the worry for the things that are dangerous and enjoy the rest.