Newbie Muzzle Loader Question

Salmo

Salmo

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Halifax Nova Scotia
I recently bought a muzzle loader at an auction, it was one of those unplanned purchases, but something that I have been interested in for a while. My Experience is limted to watching the load and fire process at our club and on youtube. I am an experienced loader and gun handler, so not without some skills. I also know I need some advice, this is a more traditional style (reproduction) percussion cap style Kentuckian muzzle loader.

The online information with respect to loose powder, patches, round balls and primers is pretty straight forward. I will be getting some local advice and help with this. Also many of the folks who shoot this style of musket at our club are pretty traditional, so looking here for some help with integrating the old with the new.

Questions, with this style of musket, can I use sabot style projectiles, likewise can I use powder plugs/pellets designed to fit this cal musket? If I can use plastic cased sabots, does it create a hugh cleaning problem when you do not have a breach approach option?


Thanks





 
Nice gun. You better watch they can be addictive. What cal. Is it? Sabots can be used I guess but it depends on the barrel twist what will be the most accurate. no to pellets for powder. You can use real black powder or black powder substitute. CLEAN the muzzleloader when you are done shooting each day as the left over fouling is corrosive. Some use hot water with soap, some use a little Windex then hot water and then oil.
Trevor
 
The answer to your question re: sabots is - maybe. It depends on the rate of rifling twist in your barrel. A 1 in 48 inch twist or faster is generally best for sabots.
I have a .50 cal Lyman Trade Rifle with a 1 in 48 inch twist and it shoots sabots very accurately (MMP green sabots with cast .44 cal bullets).

As your rifle is a "Kentucky" style which tend to be made for patched round balls I would guess it has a twist of 1 in 66. A friend has a Lyman Plains Rifle with such a twist rate and gets no accuracy with sabots.

I won't try to tell you how to measure your twist rate - just do a Yahoo or Google search and you'll get the instructions.

Or you could just buy a package of sabots and give them a try.

I have not experienced any trouble with cleaning after shooting sabots. I clean up with Windex.

I have never tried pellets in my rifle. From what I've read pellets were designed to be used in modern in-lines using hot 209 primers and would be difficult to ignite with a cap from a side-hammer rifle. If it's speed of loading that you're concerned about think of using paper cartridges or commercial "quick load" devices with loose powder. I mostly use Pyrodex as it is readily available.
 
The rate of twist s/b stamped on the barrel somewhere. I am going to venture a guess of 1:66 (if a .50). Most certainly a patched ball twist. Sidelocks do not lend themselves to pellets. True loose FFG black powder - about 70 grains with .490 and a .015 lubed patch.
 
the Greenhill formula will tell you what the longest projectile is that your rifling twist will stabilize. Anything longer will tumble. Formula is 150 x diameter squared over twist = length and note that twist and length can be reversed if you want to know what twist you need to stabilize a given lenght and diameter. All numbers are in feet and inches not metric. the short answer is that your rifle is unlikely to stabilize saboted slugs

cheers mooncoon
 
You don't say what the brand name is. But assuming it's one of the regular brands you should be able to look up the twist rate. Or simply use the You Tube methods for determining what it is.

I've heard of some folks being able to set off the pellets with regular caps. But I gather that they are really intended to be used with the more powerful 209 shot shell style primers. So ignition for pellets might be iffy at best.

A .50 is on the fence for using the finer fffg vs slightly more coarse ffg black powder. And this translates to being on the edge if you choose to use Pyrodex where the Pyrodex P is equivalent to fffg and the Pyrodex RS is more like the coarser ffg. In my case I shoot my Lyman Great Plains flinter with fffg black because I've already got it to use for my cap and ball pistols.

If it turns out that your twist rate is longer and you're stuck with patched round ball (PRB) then don't despair for hunting. I know a buddy that takes deer with a .54 using PRB with 90 gns of Pyrodex P. He's done this going back many years. And when he hits them side on in the chest there's a nice exit wound indicating full passage. A .50 with the same charge would punch a slightly smaller hole but it would be moving that much faster so I don't doubt it'll still go through a deer.

The big thing with sabot rounds is that they run faster and flatter so you can reach out further. But with the plain iron sights on this rifle are you really good enough to ensure a clean and ethical hit at much over 100 yards? The large majority of us are not. And within that 100 yard limit I'd say that the poor ballistics of the round ball are not going to cause enough speed bleed or trajectory drop to matter a lot as far as take down power goes. I'd say sight it in for 50 and learn how much hold over to use for 100 and you'll be gold. Or go the other way with a zero for 100 and learn how much hold under for 50 and 75. Which option you pick will likely depend on the sights you have and how well they lend themselves to holding one way or the other.

If you're a'scared of using round ball for accuracy don't be. With the right combination round ball is very capable of producing groups that will match whatever you can do with a cartridge rifle using the same iron sights.

Something I just found out recently that I need to work on is that the type of patching material makes a BIG difference in accuracy. Not only what it measures but the weave of the material as well. I need to play at the range to find the ones that my two BP rifles like. The percussion single shot pistol I got recently went from "minute of dinner plate" to "minute of mandarin orange" all just by switching the patch material. So work on varying all the options related to how this thing is loaded.

For plinking a powder horn and volume measure is just fine. But when you're working on accuracy you may want to weigh out and package each charge at home first.

With black powder this is easy since the volume measures are actually based on that same WEIGHT of black powder. Genuine black powder down through the ages has maintained a very consistent density which is why we can safely use the volume measures. So you can simply weigh out charges directly in grains on your scale.

But if you're using Pyrodex the density of the powder is not the same. So you need to measure out a charge using the black powder VOLUME measure first then dump that charge onto a scale to see what the actual weight of the Pyrodex is for that volume. Once you have that equivalent weight number you can then weigh out your Pyrodex charges for the optimum consistency.

Cleaning. We've all got our tricks and here's mine. I use a .50cal bore brush on a rigid shotgun cleaning rod along with a muzzle crown protector. At the base of the bore to turn the brush around I simply give the "T" handle on the shotgun rod a twist to the right while pulling back lightly. This makes the brush bristles lean sideways and let's them snap around for the exit pull. Otherwise you push the brush in and then it's stuck. But the twist breaks the lock and lets you return it.

Another option, if you don't trust this method, is to get a LONG .45caliber brush and simply use some needle nose pliers to put one or two kinks into the center wires that hold the bristles. The kinks will push the bristles to the walls and the smaller size will avoid bristle lock.

With the long and slow twist rate, even for 1:48, I use the solid rod anyway and just let the "T" handle twist in my hold or use my palm to push in while the "T" rotates. Then two fingers on the lower round portion to pull back and again it rotates.

If the end has the smaller sub chamber to hold the powder you'll need an end cleaning brush. My Lyman has a .30cal size powder chamber. To clean that I took a .22 rifle brush and bent it into a "U shape so the end of the chamber is cleaned as well.

For drying and oiling I use round button jags so the patch is forced neatly into the rifling. For the powder chamber I just use the U bent .22 brush as a jag.

You'll want a nipple wrench and some pipe cleaners for cleaning out the nipple block and into the chamber. And for oiling the bore and nipple you want to use a BP friendly oil. Regular gun oils and other petroleum oils will gum up when mixed with black powder or Pyrodex fouling and turn into a tarry, sticky mess. The oil you need for this gun is Ballistol. It won't gum up like the other regular petroleum oils.
 
A great post there from BCRider - to tell the truth there is not a lot I can add, except to remind you that pellets are designed specifically to be set off by a powerful primer from behind. All those I've seen have a small inclusion of black powder centralised in the pellet, so that the straight-line ignition of the, uh, straight-line/inline rifle using a #209 shotgun primer can set off the charge with a very high degree of certainty.. As was noted, trying to set it off from the side, and these pellets are pretty solid in construction, may well be a lesson in futility, especially if you take to the woods with your new rifle. And BTW, NOT a musket - a musket is a smooth-bore gun.

tac
 
BCRider gave you all the basic info. As a long-time shooter, I might add a few things. First, if your rifle is 50 cal. or better, you don't need sabots or anything else. A round ball weighs around 180 grains. With soft lead, that will bring down any critter in Canada at reasonable ranges. If it's a 45, try some maxi balls, which weigh around 250 and can be quite accurate. I have a .45 Kentucky which I have made hundreds of head shots on grouse with using 22 gr. of fffG and round ball, and which will produce 3-4 inch groups (offhand) at 100 yards using a 250 gr. maxi and 70 gr. of fffG. When I go higher, my groups open up a lot.

When you do load, the tendency with most (mea culpa) new shooters is to see how much powder you can stuff down the pipe. Having played with everything from .32 to .72 cal., I have found that, unfailingly, mid-range loads are the most accurate. If you are using percussion caps, stick to loose powder, BP or Pyrodex. I haven't found a huge difference in cleaning between the two. The best lube I used is Bore Butter, which smells like wintergreen. If you don't use petroleum based oil in the bore, and stick to BB, it is somewhat easier to clean.
 
Thank you so much everyone, you make up a very generous community. I am glad I asked the question here, clearly lots to learn, but that is a big part of what makes this interesting. BCRider, big thanks for taking the time help me out. With respect to distance and accuracy, in NS, I believe most deer are taken well under 100 yards and unless I am comfortable at that distance i will not take it hunting until I am.

Cheers All.
 
As TAC said: IT IS NOT A MUSKET. It is a rifle - a replica of a longrifle and most certainly designed to shoot patched round balls with loose measured black powder or BP substitute powder only and no sabotted slugs. You have lots of good info on loading and shooting so have fun with it. It will take size #11 percussion caps.
 
Before you buy sabots, price out round balls, and patches. sabots cost dearly. Round ball is cheap. It is even cheaper to cast pure lead Round balls and conicals.{ Not Wheel Weights} The lee REAL will shoot from most twists. You can get a Lee mould cheap, and use a coleman stove for melting the lead in an old cast iron pot. http://www.titanreloading.com/molds/black-powder-molds There should be lots of pure lead around the coast from nets etc.

If you get a combo mould you can cast both and use what shoots best.
http://www.titanreloading.com/molds/black-powder-molds/combo-molds

Real black is available in NS. There is a fireworks distributor there that is a dealer for Goex Black powder. It is easy to clean up too, and easier than the subs. http://fireworksfx.com/GOEX-Black-Powder.html
For 45/50 cal I prefer FFFG . Real black ignites more reliably that Pyrodex, 777 etc.
 
Looks like everyone has pretty well covered what you need to know but I would like to add my little bits...If you are hunting use a greased patch as the lubricant will not dry out like some other patch lubes will. If you are target shooting the greased patches will leave a residue that will mix with the black powder fouling that will create no small amount of grief. I mix up an excellent patch lube/bore cleaner that uses the blue windshield washer fluid as a base. You need to add enough water soluble cutting oil to turn it into a mint green color. then add a good dollop of Murphys oil soap. You can shoot all day with this and your bore will not gum up. It also makes an excellent bore cleaner and its pretty cheap to make as a jug of the windshield washer fluid costs as low as $1.99 sometimes. It has no water in it so it won't rust your bore as well.

Cheers everyone. Steve.
 
I'm actually quite new to BP shooting. But like with most stuff I jumped into the deep end with ankle weights.... :D I shoot fairly regularly with my Chilliwack club's black powder group. We do a trail walk so there's no big bench to set stuff out and one can't dilly dally for a long time between shots. So the lessons and hints I've put into my post reflect this somewhat fast paced sort of shoot, load, chat if there's a few moments then shoot again. Repeat for 25 to 35 shots. I also shoot BP revolvers and BP loads in rifle and shotgun for cowboy action shooting. There again the pace is such that there's not a lot of time to fuss around. So again I had to learn what works right but what works quickly.

Take careful note of the order there. You don't want to chat while loading. That's a good way to end up dry balling or double charging or any host of other mistakes. After you shoot and field the first comments move away a few feet and turn your back while loading if you get into this sort of group. It's a HUGE amount of fun but you want to get a quiet moment for the reloading before returning to the jokes and smack talk.

And NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER carry your ram rod around in the bore. It seems like everyone that does so for any degree of time at all ends up shooting the darn thing downrange. Either keep it in the carry loops as intended or if you really must get a high zoot aftermarket ramrod then for heaven's sake make up a belt scabbard for the darn thing.

And no, I haven't done it yet. I like to think I can learn from others and when I do make up a special ramrod instead of using the stock wood rods it WILL have a leather scabbard to keep it stored.

At least one of those examples actually hit the target with her ramrod too.... .:D

The others have added some great hints which my short time doing this stuff hasn't run across yet. I was thinking of the Lee REAL casting mold as a possible hunting round as well. The projectile weight is higher and it'll work with the slower twist where a lighter bullet in a sabot might not get spinning fast enough to stabilize really well.

Patch lubes are a WHOLE other topic. I like the sounds of that mix suggested by stevejones just above. So far I've gone with Ballistol mixed with water at a ratio of 1:3. The Ballistol mixes with the water into a milky product much like water soluble oil. Which isn't really soluble, the right term is "miscible". But that's splitting hairs.... :D

Steve, I know that the windshield washer stuff has some methyl hydrate in it as an anti freeze ingredient but by far the bigger portion of those washing fluid jugs is still good ol' water.
 
Good comment about dry balling BC.
Now for our new friend here is what to do when you load a ball and no powder, or as we say DRY BALL. Yep you will do it sooner or later. The easy fix is take the nipple off the gun, and work some powder in behind the ball, replace nipple and cap, point in safe direction and shoot it out. If it doesn't go all the way out , {Check with Ramrod} drive it back down and repeat with the powder behind the nipple. It will come out and with a lot more speed than you would think.
 
Got to shoot the rifle tonight, worked as expected, used a safe load and both my son I enjoyed it a lot. I can see the attraction for many reasons and look forward to shooting it again soon. Started cleaning it in the garage, not realizing how strong the rotten egg smell would be until I poured the hot water in the barrel. Really need to move the cleaning process outside for sure next time.
 
Excellent post, and I can't add a thing aside from my experiences using the R.E.A.L. projectiles.
images
Rifling. Engraved. At. Loading. (R.E.A.L.) {seen on the right vs a Minne ball}

I really can't say enough good things. No patches, no worries of fouling, no worries about having to clean in between shots...just a stunning projectile that self centers, self seals, and self cleans the fouling from the previous shot, doesn't seem to care about the rifling ratio...lube the lands full with bore butter, ram her down on the charge and shoot, and shoot, and shoot, and...you get the point.
Get yourself a mold for your caliber, get some pure lead and start making and using these. You'll never mess with a RB again. I don't think I'll even cast Minnie's again (a few perhaps for hunting?).
Great Boolit...just do it!
 
plinker 777 said:
Excellent post, and I can't add a thing aside from my experiences using the R.E.A.L. projectiles.
images
Rifling. Engraved. At. Loading. (R.E.A.L.) {seen on the right vs a Minne ball}

I really can't say enough good things. No patches, no worries of fouling, no worries about having to clean in between shots...just a stunning projectile that self centers, self seals, and self cleans the fouling from the previous shot, doesn't seem to care about the rifling ratio...lube the lands full with bore butter, ram her down on the charge and shoot, and shoot, and shoot, and...you get the point.
Get yourself a mold for your caliber, get some pure lead and start making and using these. You'll never mess with a RB again. I don't think I'll even cast Minnie's again (a few perhaps for hunting?).
Great Boolit...just do it!
Click to expand...

A Maxi is very similar to the REAL. My charcoal burners really like them.

 
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