newbie rifle case resizing question

L

luckey

CGN frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
8   0   0
Hi, I need some help from the gurus here again. :)

tonight I was resizing and testing some of my 308 range brass(not from my own rifle). I found some of them, regardless how I adjust the full length sizing die(LEE), the shoulder head space is just so long that the bolt won't close.

Using a hornady headspace comparator, I got my own once-fired cases measured at around 1.625" - 1.627", the range cases, those caused bolt won't close, even after screw the die really down, still measured between 1.630" and 1.640" which I think it's why the bolt won't close.

My question is, does this mean these cases are not salvageable any more? just throw them away?

Thanks!
 
I am no expert with bottle necked cases, but you would think that even if the range brass cases were fired in a rifle with excess headspace, that the Lee resizing die could be adjusted to set the shoulder back to slightly less than the factory maximum dimensions.
So, the cases should then be able to chamber easily.
Your own rifle chambers factory rounds with no difficulty, so it must have normal headspace, and not be undersized.
So, perhaps the Lee resizing die is at fault.
Perhaps it was manufactured out of spec?

Just my theory. I'm certain that others have more experience with this than I do.
 
Last edited:
Run a case in the press. With the arm all the way down (cam'ed over if your press has that feature), get eye level with your shell plate and die and see if you can see daylight between the bottom of the die and top of the shell plate. If they're kissing, you could run the top of the shell plate on some 400grit emery sandpaper on a glass plate and knock it back a thou or so.
 
It is probable that the brass can be sized to fit.

I suspect it is your die setting. Turn your die down 2 full turns. This means the die should come down and hit the shell holder. This represents 100% sizing. Make sure the case is lubed and make the die hit the shell holder. That should work.

Let us know.
 
- Run the ram all the way to the top and screw the die down until it touches the shell holder and then give the die a tad more creating a slight cam over. .

- lube all the cases and the inside of the necks and run them through the press.

- Trim all your cases to the correct length

- Chamber them through your rifle, they should all chamber with ease

- If some won't chamber then smoke the cases (candle works) and re-chamber them

- Carefully remove the cases and look carefully to where the smoke is rubbed off and then go from there.

- The die and shell holder should be of the same make
 
I have a m1a that I'm keeping track of the brass testing IVI mil , using a provin load 41.5 imr 4895 / 168 mk . I'm finding with each batch I am culling a few that don't fit into my case gauge( I'm using small base dies) . They seem to deform at the case head area (kind of out of round ) what I'm going with is the action cycles so fast that abnormal brass deforming happens once in a while ( sometimes spinning the brass in the case gauge shows it ) I'm just culling the offending brass and keeping the rest of the batch in the test ( on third firing now)
 
I have have found this to be the case with the Austrian Milsurp brass (in my case, the "HP II 83" headstamp)

It appears that this brass is way beyond max case length spec after the initial firing and will not run all the way into my Lee .308 sizing die (nor my RCBS SB Die)
I trim the brass to length and de-burr BEFORE I size the cases. Then I trim and chamfer again before I add primers.

On a side note, The Boxer primer flash hole on the HP brass is tiny and the decapping pin binds badly in the hole. I use a Lee decapping die first and then I drill out the hole with a 5/64" bit.

I hope this tip resolves your issue!
 
Thanks for all the replies. you guys are always helpful as ever.

I did all the basics and am sure I did all the settings right. LEE said 1/4 to 1/3 more turn after touching the shell plate which is what I use for the full length resizing. When encountered the problem, I screwed down way more than 3 or 4 turns just as experiment to see what would come out of it. No luck at all.

With all the reply, K-C's situation was the closest because I didn't mention(never thought it would be relevant) that the problem only happens with Austrian Surplus with headstamp HP II 83. However, with the exact same LEE die and setting, only a few so far have this issue(2 out of 21, doing 50 more to see). So, I don't think it's the setting issue. However, K-C's solution doesn't seem to work for me because BEFORE I post question here, I found the problem after I full size/trim/de-burr, and then I resized them again with more than 3 or 4 turns down.

Another experiment I could think of is that, maybe tomorrow I will try to trim the 2 two cases shorter(right now it's the standard 2.005"), may be to 1.995(minimum as per LEE), and then resize.

I don't have the decapping binding issue with any of the HP brass though with the same LEE die(mine is LEE 308 Winchester Ultimate 4-Die Set if that makes any difference).


K-C said:
I have have found this to be the case with the Austrian Milsurp brass (in my case, the "HP II 83" headstamp)

It appears that this brass is way beyond max case length spec after the initial firing and will not run all the way into my Lee .308 sizing die (nor my RCBS SB Die)
I trim the brass to length and de-burr BEFORE I size the cases. Then I trim and chamfer again before I add primers.

On a side note, The Boxer primer flash hole on the HP brass is tiny and the decapping pin binds badly in the hole. I use a Lee decapping die first and then I drill out the hole with a 5/64" bit.

I hope this tip resolves your issue!
Click to expand...
 
I buy bulk once fired military Lake City brass fired in many different rifles and machine guns and resize them all once in a small base die

A small base die reduces the case diameter and shoulder headspace length to SAAMI minimum dimensions. Meaning .002 to .003 smaller in diameter and .003 to .004 more shoulder bump. I also use Redding competition shell holders to control should bump.

When you use range pickup or once fired brass you can be dealing with brass spring back. Meaning the brass after sizing wants to spring back to its fired size.

If your die is making hard contact with the shell holder and your press is reaching cam over then try pausing 4 or 5 seconds at the top of the ram stroke, then rotate the case 180 and size again pausing.

Pausing at the top of the ram stroke "reduces" brass spring back, it lets the brass know who is the boss and to stay put after sizing.

If you have tried everything mentioned in this posting then a small base die should fix your problem. "BUT" resizing dies and chambers vary in size and nothing is written in stone.

Right now I'm sizing 7.62 Lake City brass that was fired in a machine gun with a small base die and resting my tired right arm. ;)
 
Last edited:
After further testing on 109 pieces of Hirtenberger Brass(Headstamp: HP II 83), I found another 17 pieces brass with the same issue. So, out of 130 in total, I cannot resize 19 of them.

What I have tried:

1. screw the LEE FL sizing die ALL THE WAY DOWN. That's more than 6 turns I believe as I didn't bother to count once it's more than 4 & half turns.
2. turn the brass 90 degree with each pull, meaning I resize each brass 4 times to ensure the neck/shoulder got even pressure
3. Also as bigedp51 suggested, which also gave me sore arms now. :) , I pull and hold the bar down for 5 seconds on each pull.

With all these, these 19 piece just didn't size down a bit. What I know for sure now is the difference between the ones I managed to resize are less than 1.630" measured with hornady headspace comparator, the 19 pieces I couldn't resize are all longer than 1.630" up to and could be over than 1.640"-1.645". I did ask my friend who gave the brass, he told me they were all once-fired out of his XCR-M & SOCOM 16. So, again, this is almost identical to what K-C said.

So, Is it possible the brass might just be over-stretched out of limit and lost the elasticity? Annealing may be able to fix it ?? I think I am going to try that.
 
Beg or borrow a different set of dies (RCBS or Redding) and see if that makes a difference.

p.s. if that doesn't help you can try grinding a few thou off the top of the shell holder to give the dies a little extra run.
 
K-C said:
I have have found this to be the case with the Austrian Milsurp brass (in my case, the "HP II 83" headstamp)

It appears that this brass is way beyond max case length spec after the initial firing and will not run all the way into my Lee .308 sizing die (nor my RCBS SB Die)
I trim the brass to length and de-burr BEFORE I size the cases. Then I trim and chamfer again before I add primers.

On a side note, The Boxer primer flash hole on the HP brass is tiny and the decapping pin binds badly in the hole. I use a Lee decapping die first and then I drill out the hole with a 5/64" bit.

I hope this tip resolves your issue!
Click to expand...

Can you find a small dia decapping pin?

The Aussies ran a test of flash hole dia vs accuracy (SD). They found that the smaller the hole the better the SD. That is why Aussie ammo is accurate and they use the small hole.

It also explains why Berdan brass gets very good SD. (Small holes)
 
I just bought a Savage .308 Hog Hunter and 300 once fired military Lake City 7.62 cases referred to as machine gun brass. And the first time dealing with once fired military 7.62 brass.

In three different forums I asked what type/make dies worked for reloaders using 7.62 MG brass, meaning a standard .308 die or a small base die.

I ended up buying a small base die that not only reduces the case diameter .002 to .003 more but also but also bumped the case shoulder back the same amount.

A small base die sizes the case back to minimum SAAMI case dimensions in body diameter and cartridge headspace.

From asking my questions I learned some new tricks dealing with reducing the body diameter of 7.62 machine gun brass.

1. A 30-06 die will reduce the base diameter more than a .308 die, don't ask me how or why but I tried it and it worked.

2. A carbide .45 acp die will also reduce the base diameter down to .268.

After sizing with the above dies the case is sized again with a standard or small base .308 die to finish the sizing.

Dies and chambers do vary in size and sometimes you end up with the wrong die and need to try something else.

Bottom line you sometimes can't get away with setting your die up and hoping the shoulder location will be the same with mixed brass. And if your brass was fired in a larger diameter military chamber the base of the case may be over sized for a commercial .308 chamber.

NOTE, I ran into cases that the small base die rubbed more on one side of the case. These cases were trashed because these cases were thinner on one side and bulged and became egg shaped. All my cases were sized on a Rockchucker press using Redding competition shell holders making hard contact with the shell holder reaching press camover. Some cases required changing the shell holder and sizing again to get the correct shoulder bump. These military 7.62 cases use harder and thicker brass and sometime additional methods need to be used to get them back to the proper size.

As a side note I use JP Enterprise case gauge cut with a finish chamber reamer that checks case body diameter to check the sized case for proper minimum diameter. (plop test)
 
Thanks again everyone for the advice. After posting last night(or early morning today I should say), I did order a set of RCBS small base die from amazon and it should be here momentarily(Amazon Prime is good), after that, if still not working, I will try annealing.
@billdick, this is more of an interesting experiment. I think any issues we encountered is a great opportunity to learn something, especially I am new to rifle reloading. The more issues(as long as it's safe), the merrier. :)
 
Hi everyone, I am so happy to report that the problem was FIXED! RCBS Small Base Die and Amazon Prime service saved the day! It was so much difference. the regular FL sizing die doesn't move the brass a bit even fully screwed down. With RCBS small base die, I only need to turn in less than 1/8 turn to get the shoulder bump to the desired size to my rifle. The Hirtenberger is tough though, I did have to turn 4 times 90 degree in the small base die for each brass to get it sized properly. With only one pull, even in the small base die, the brass still won't fit my rifle, as if the once-fired bass was deformed into uneven shape somewhere.

happy ending and learn something new today. I heard of small base die for semi-auto before, but never thought I need it the other way around, even just once for range brass. I guess I should buy one set for my coming AR and X95 as well. :)

Thanks again for everyone's ideas which eventually led to the solution.
 
OP I have encountered your problem quite the odd time. Here is how it works.
The range brass has been fired in a chamber that was longer than the chamber on your rifle. You full length resize it, but the brass is hard and when it comes out of the die, the shoulder springs ahead, just enough that it won't go in your rifle.
It will do the same with small base dies.
The solution is to anneal the range brass, then resize it and it will go into your rifle easily.
 
Thanks H4831. Annealing is on my plan. I just didn't expect to anneal once-fired brass. luckily right now the problem was fixed and I have no more range brass. all others were fire-formed in my rifle. So I will look at annealing them after a few reloads.
Right now back to my focus on load development and the most important thing, shooting. :)

H4831 said:
OP I have encountered your problem quite the odd time. Here is how it works.
The range brass has been fired in a chamber that was longer than the chamber on your rifle. You full length resize it, but the brass is hard and when it comes out of the die, the shoulder springs ahead, just enough that it won't go in your rifle.
It will do the same with small base dies.
The solution is to anneal the range brass, then resize it and it will go into your rifle easily.
Click to expand...
 
Brass cases harden by firing and especially if a lot of years have passed since the brass was factory loaded, it is amazing how much it will harden by only one firing and reworking.
Do some testing sometime on how quickly annealed brass hardens up again.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom