I am very green in the reloading arena so I thought I would start on something straight walled low powered and somewhat easier to reload. Bought the Lee anniversary kit and got it set up last night. This morning I played around with making some 38 S&W dummy rounds (no primer or powder just cases and bullets) to safely get a feel for all the equipment works. I got the decapper and sizing die, as well as the powder and expander die set up no problem. My issue arises with bullet seating and crimping. I am now getting nice crimps but I a struggling with seating depth. My question is what kind of tolerance is allowed here. I am loading 200 gr SWC and the load data calls for OAL of 1.175 inches. For the life of me I can only get them to 1.169 I don’t want to waste too many bullets or cases making these dummy rounds so I am wondering if there is a better way to get an exact seating depth?
Newbie Seating depth
- Thread starter MattE93
- Start date
Seating and crimping should be two separate steps in my opinion. Trying to crimp and seat in one operation is a pain in the butt as you’re finding out now.
The trick with those seat/crimp dies is to set the crimp (die) first and fine tune the seat (knurled knob) after you get a decent crimp. Keep in mind you’re pretty much only trying to take the flare off. On a straight walled cartridge, there’s enough neck tension to hold the bullet in if it’s sized properly.
Edit: seating depth on pistol rounds can vary from reloading data. As long as you don’t seat so short that you increase pressure, you’re good to go if it feeds and chambers properly. .020” either way is no big deal usually as long as it’s consistent.
Start low and work up either way.
The trick with those seat/crimp dies is to set the crimp (die) first and fine tune the seat (knurled knob) after you get a decent crimp. Keep in mind you’re pretty much only trying to take the flare off. On a straight walled cartridge, there’s enough neck tension to hold the bullet in if it’s sized properly.
Edit: seating depth on pistol rounds can vary from reloading data. As long as you don’t seat so short that you increase pressure, you’re good to go if it feeds and chambers properly. .020” either way is no big deal usually as long as it’s consistent.
Start low and work up either way.
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When I say two steps I mean seat with your seater/crimp die backed off from the press so it doesn’t crimp at all and then use a separate crimp only die afterwards.
To use your current die, ballpark the seating depth (knurled knob) and set a nice crimp (depth of your die in the press). Then adjust the seating knob to fine tune.
To use your current die, ballpark the seating depth (knurled knob) and set a nice crimp (depth of your die in the press). Then adjust the seating knob to fine tune.
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You can seat until your heart's content, as long as you don't apply a crimp. See the video below for setup of the combo seat/crimp die.
The OAL's listed in manuals are what the testing company used when they tested the load but unless you are using all the exact same components and a universal receiver (super unlikely, lol) than all that information is completely useless to you. The video forgets to mention that the die should be secured with the locking ring once the desired seat/crimp is achieved.
Who makes the 200gr SWC that you're using?
[youtube]V7T9KwzpU2A[/youtube]
The OAL's listed in manuals are what the testing company used when they tested the load but unless you are using all the exact same components and a universal receiver (super unlikely, lol) than all that information is completely useless to you. The video forgets to mention that the die should be secured with the locking ring once the desired seat/crimp is achieved.
Who makes the 200gr SWC that you're using?
[youtube]V7T9KwzpU2A[/youtube]
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Not sure where the SWC came from. Got a box of 1000 off the EE and they came in a old cardboard box with no info.
So if the OAL in the manual isnt super useful is 1.17 vs 1.175 good enough for safety? My only real concern is over seating. These 200 gr bullets are large enough to fill the entire case so I want make sure I leave enough safe room for powder
So if the OAL in the manual isnt super useful is 1.17 vs 1.175 good enough for safety? My only real concern is over seating. These 200 gr bullets are large enough to fill the entire case so I want make sure I leave enough safe room for powder
.005” will make absolutely zero difference. .050 will barely make a difference (it could if you were close to max) And assuming everything still seats and chambers/feeds properly. .005 is the thickness of a couple of pieces of cheap paper...
I'm a little confused by the language you're using to describe the OAL problem you're experiencing. Just so we are clear, 1.175 is longer than 1.169. I don't load 38 S&W so you'll have to tell me why you can't make the round longer than 1.169. What does the round measure if you just sit the bullet on the case by hand without seating?
The video above helped for sure. I was having issues getting a good enough crimp with the round being long enough. If I increased then crimp the OAL got shorter. If I set the crimp less the depth was okay but I got no crimp. After watching that video I now get a good crimp with an OAL of around 1.171.
My next question is how do I pull lead bullets lol. I wasted 7 cases and bullets trying to get my die correct. I don’t care if I damage the bullets. THey were cheap but I would like the cases back.
My next question is how do I pull lead bullets lol. I wasted 7 cases and bullets trying to get my die correct. I don’t care if I damage the bullets. THey were cheap but I would like the cases back.
The problems you may be having is multi-fold, if I understand what you are describing.
The .38 S&W (not .38 Special) is a very short case. It sounds like you are trying to recreate the original .38-200 load. This is difficult to do, after loading a lot of .38 S&W. You have to pay attention to how much of the bullet is seated into the case, not the overall length. The only overall length that matters is whether or not it is too long for the cylinder or not. How deep you seat the bullet matters, as that can drastically change the pressure of a load. If you are using a 200 gr SWC, then it is nothing like the original bullet, and therefore the overall length of the load from whatever 'load date' you are using is irrelevant.
A picture of your bullet and a loaded cartridge might help with any more trouble shooting.
The .38 S&W (not .38 Special) is a very short case. It sounds like you are trying to recreate the original .38-200 load. This is difficult to do, after loading a lot of .38 S&W. You have to pay attention to how much of the bullet is seated into the case, not the overall length. The only overall length that matters is whether or not it is too long for the cylinder or not. How deep you seat the bullet matters, as that can drastically change the pressure of a load. If you are using a 200 gr SWC, then it is nothing like the original bullet, and therefore the overall length of the load from whatever 'load date' you are using is irrelevant.
A picture of your bullet and a loaded cartridge might help with any more trouble shooting.
Put on ear muffs. Load cylinder. pull trigger. 6 empty cases.
If they will chamber, they are safe to shoot.
Go buy one of the kinetic bullet pullers. If you are reloading it will more than pay for itself over time.
I'm a bit concerned by BigRobb's method for setting the two functions. If the bullets are jacketed setting the crimp first works fine. But if you are loading cast lead bullets you don't want to crimp THEN adjust the seating as the edge of the casing mouth will cut and "plow" lead badly.
I do it the same way as BigRobb in that I bought spare separate seating and crimping dies or factory taper crimp dies. I seat only with one die and then crimp with the second. If both are combo seating and crimping dies the first is purposely left "high" so it won't crimp at all. I only seat to depth with that first die. The second has the seating plug pulled out or at least dialed way up and I set the outer threading depth to just crimp.
But if you want to carry on for now or you are using a press that does not have a fourth die location then this is how I set up the combination setup. First I back off the outer barrel so it won't crimp. I then adjust the center seating adjustment to seat the bullet to my desired depth. Then I back the seating stem way out so it's totally out of the picture. Now I loosen the lock nut of the outer barrel and turn it down until I feel resistance from the die touching the casing mouth. Be sure the lock nut is backed off so that silly O ring or other locking features are not being felt. With the die just touching the flare run the lock nut down and lower the ram.
At that point I start with about a sixth of a turn down on the die and pinch the locknut in place. Cycle the press to crimp and examine the result carefully. For semi auto rounds you just want to remove the flare without any inward crimping. Or at most barely visible crimping. And I do mean BARELY! ! ! Use the light shining on the brass and forming a narrow reflection line and look for a little bend or kink at the mouth. There should not be any or just a little for semi auto. For revolver ammo with bullets that have a crimp ring I do keep lowering the die until I have just a small amount of inward crimp. Look at some commercial revolver ammo to see a proper amount. It's never much at all.
If cast lead then the bullets usually have a crimping groove that you would use as a guide. But most bullets like 200gn semi wadcutters would be intended for the longer .38 Special casings and would be set to seat fairly deeply. that might not be good for your situation and would likely result in too high a pressure by filling up too much of the small short casing. In this case you may need to modify things so you either don't pinch in past "just straight" or you pinch in slightly into the lube groove depending on the bullet design.
Take note too that the original 38-200 round showed a lot of bullet to reach that OAL. If not using the same bullet you might not make it. Also SWC's have flat noses and tend to load a little shorter than a round nose when both are set to the same correct depth into the casing.
I don't load 38-200 but if I did and had to make do with oddball bullets I think I'd find out the seating depth of the proper bullets and work towards matching that specification and let the bullets stick out or not to whatever OAL that results. As long as they don't stick out past the front of the cylinder and cause a lockup of the gun it's all good. Far better to ensure the loaded casing volume is near to spec for that sort of ammo.
I'm a bit concerned by BigRobb's method for setting the two functions. If the bullets are jacketed setting the crimp first works fine. But if you are loading cast lead bullets you don't want to crimp THEN adjust the seating as the edge of the casing mouth will cut and "plow" lead badly.
I do it the same way as BigRobb in that I bought spare separate seating and crimping dies or factory taper crimp dies. I seat only with one die and then crimp with the second. If both are combo seating and crimping dies the first is purposely left "high" so it won't crimp at all. I only seat to depth with that first die. The second has the seating plug pulled out or at least dialed way up and I set the outer threading depth to just crimp.
But if you want to carry on for now or you are using a press that does not have a fourth die location then this is how I set up the combination setup. First I back off the outer barrel so it won't crimp. I then adjust the center seating adjustment to seat the bullet to my desired depth. Then I back the seating stem way out so it's totally out of the picture. Now I loosen the lock nut of the outer barrel and turn it down until I feel resistance from the die touching the casing mouth. Be sure the lock nut is backed off so that silly O ring or other locking features are not being felt. With the die just touching the flare run the lock nut down and lower the ram.
At that point I start with about a sixth of a turn down on the die and pinch the locknut in place. Cycle the press to crimp and examine the result carefully. For semi auto rounds you just want to remove the flare without any inward crimping. Or at most barely visible crimping. And I do mean BARELY! ! ! Use the light shining on the brass and forming a narrow reflection line and look for a little bend or kink at the mouth. There should not be any or just a little for semi auto. For revolver ammo with bullets that have a crimp ring I do keep lowering the die until I have just a small amount of inward crimp. Look at some commercial revolver ammo to see a proper amount. It's never much at all.
If cast lead then the bullets usually have a crimping groove that you would use as a guide. But most bullets like 200gn semi wadcutters would be intended for the longer .38 Special casings and would be set to seat fairly deeply. that might not be good for your situation and would likely result in too high a pressure by filling up too much of the small short casing. In this case you may need to modify things so you either don't pinch in past "just straight" or you pinch in slightly into the lube groove depending on the bullet design.
Take note too that the original 38-200 round showed a lot of bullet to reach that OAL. If not using the same bullet you might not make it. Also SWC's have flat noses and tend to load a little shorter than a round nose when both are set to the same correct depth into the casing.
I don't load 38-200 but if I did and had to make do with oddball bullets I think I'd find out the seating depth of the proper bullets and work towards matching that specification and let the bullets stick out or not to whatever OAL that results. As long as they don't stick out past the front of the cylinder and cause a lockup of the gun it's all good. Far better to ensure the loaded casing volume is near to spec for that sort of ammo.
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The crimp function of the lee die is activated by the case. There should be no (very little) bullet movement when the case activates the crimp. The bullet is already seated by the seating stem when the crimp starts no matter where the bullet happens to be. That’s why if you set the seating first, you’ll be chasing your tail trying to get the right crimp.
