newby needs advice

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kookookachoo

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Howdy,

I'm a new pistol shooter. Love it! Long term I want to get involved in IPSC competition.

I figure on training with a .22LR and competing with a 9mm. Is there any virtue in using a .22LR that is an identical replica of a 9mm. I'd think that using the same frame would lead to a better transfers of skills.

I'm considering a CZ Kadet/CZ 75 SP-01 combo.

Any thoughts?

Thanks and Happy New Year!

Peter
 
Ipsc

kookookachoo said:
Howdy,

I'm a new pistol shooter. Love it! Long term I want to get involved in IPSC competition.

I figure on training with a .22LR and competing with a 9mm. Is there any virtue in using a .22LR that is an identical replica of a 9mm. I'd think that using the same frame would lead to a better transfers of skills.

I'm considering a CZ Kadet/CZ 75 SP-01 combo.

Any thoughts?

Thanks and Happy New Year!

Peter
Click to expand...

I shoot IPSC at the very casual level as the only one I compete against is me. My priorities are to be safe, have fun and get my "hits". If I get faster good, if not the score doesn't mean much to me.

Learning to use the controls on your handgun quickly and more or less automatically is important so training with guns that are consistent in layout and function is important. Training with a 22 will get you moving and doing the basics like reloads. Safe gun handling while preoccupied with the game is an acquired skill and that is consistent from gun to gun. You will find that transitions from target to target and reloads are critical to good times. You will want to be able to rely on muscle memory as once that buzzer goes, "thinking" tends to be put aside.

My issue with competing with a different gun that you use for training is the element of flip and recoil. Picking up the sights and target quickly are dramatically affected by gun control and so adjusting for recoil can't be a last minute thing as it will affect your rhythm and consequently your results.
 
I believe there is sound benefit in .22 practice:

1- Sheer trigger time- 500 rds of 22= $20, 500 rds of 9mm = $100ish+ (not reloading)

2- Shooting 22 WILL make you practice clearance drills (who hasn't had a dud 22?)
 
Sounds like you intend to shoot Production which is a great way to get started in IPSC. In my experience the most common pistols in that Division are Shadows, Glocks and M&Ps. All are excellent choices with Glock probably being the most economical. Personally I would put my money into reloading gear rather than a 22 that you will quickly outgrow. As you will find, ammo becomes a very personal choice. Some shooters like a lighter bullet with more powder for a snappier feel to the gun, others like a heavier bullet less powder for a softer feel. With some reloading gear you can both customize your ammo to what works for you and make the sport more affordable.
 
.22 and ?

I've never been much of a believer in the "learn on a .22" school. Just shooting a .22 bores me quickly as I enjoy reasonable recoil. There isn't much too offensive about 9mm particularly in an all steel gun. In fact many new shooters might be surprised at just how comfortable the .45 ACP is in a full-sized gun. That said, I do use a .22 upper for Steel Challenge. However the fun of the game makes up for the character of the .22.

Nevertheless, shooting is a very personal thing and different strokes are for different folks. If the .22 has appeal for the initial learning period or for any other reason, there is always the option of a larger caliber pistol with a .22 upper. I had a SIG .22 for some time but found I rarely used it on my P-226-40 mostly because to me, recoil and controlling it are part of the fun.

The same is possible with the CZ line with a Kadet upper. If the .22 loses its appeal, the uppers usually sell easily. If you do enjoy and use the .22 in some volume, the ammo savings will buy a second pistol in time.
 
While both are nice guns I'm not a huge believer in the .22 needing to be the same "gun" as the center fire.

For IPSC and other speed related multi shot competitions you need to learn to work with the recoil and the pace of shooting that is to some extent controlled by this. On the other hand the .22 has so little recoil that if you practice well aimed multiple shots with it and try to use that same timing with center fire you'll be all over the place.

Instead where the .22 shines is in other areas such as fighting off flinching issues and in draw or raise/aim/fire that first shot. It's a bit of a skill of it's own to pick up on the draw or raise from low ready, engage the support hand, and extend the gun out while sighting so that the first shot of the string occurs in a smooth and fast manner. For this the .22 shines. The one advantage of using the Kadet or conversion kit for this is that you can also learn to safely decock the hammer and work with the double action trigger for this first shot. Or you can just learn your proper trigger control and then transition to shooting the 9mm as well.

From this it seems like I'm contradicting myself. But not really. While there IS some good points about using the same style of gun or even a conversion kit this assumes that this setup is the ONLY pistol you'll ever own. The practice you'll get using the identical platforms in the two calibers only works if you only shoot this exact gun all the time. Toss in a couple of other semi autos and maybe even some revolvers and all these "single platform" advantages go down the flusher.

At that point A .22 that somewhat resembles the center fire guns is still a good idea. But it doesn't need to be a direct clone of any single gun. However if you intend to own a CZ along with some other guns such as 1911's and perhaps a Glock or M&P or other guns with similar grip angles then owning a Ruger .22 with the very much Luger inspired grip angle is a mistake as it isn't anything at all like the grip angles of your other present or future guns. But a Ruger 22/45 would be a good choice with its more vertical angle. Or a Browning Buckmark or a .... the list goes on.

And while the Kadet is a really nice gun it's also a PRICEY gun. And the Kadet kit to fit onto a CZ frame is priced as much as many very nice .22 pistols sell for either new or used. And for that sort of cash I'd rather have a whole other gun.

So all in all I honestly feel that you can do just fine with any sort of reasonably similar .22 semi to go with the regular SP-01 or Shadow.
 
Whew!

That was quite a mouthful but I understand and agree with it all in one way or another. I started with a SIG X-Five in .40 as my very first gun and didn't use a .22 until much later. There is so much to the action games and that's why they have so much appeal. I do know I spent many many hours drawing and gaining that first sight picture by doing dry fire exercises. I don't think too many would argue against dry fire.

I do think that there's something to be said for starting and staying with one gun. I'm an oldie and so in a great rush to experience everything I can quickly. So since I had several guns, I switched from one to the other frequently. As most would agree, moving from a DA/SA SIG 40 to a 1911 45 and then to a SIG .357 P-226 is quite likely going to retard skill development.

I'm glad I learned with a pistol that has moderate recoil. As you say, recoil control and transitions for follow up shots are realistic parts of the games not to mention the fun. While I didn't do it, to me training extensively with a 22 and then moving up caliber wise would be like going back "to go".
 
What you say about choosing and sticking to one gun IS the way to go if we want to be the next National or World Champ.

A guy I know that has done very well in past years said he was thinking about getting back to IPSC. But his training regimen called for a winter worth of practice with his old IPSC gun and that he would not so much as pick up and present any other gun into a sight picture stance over that entire time. For him and at his level it was all about doing as best as he could with his equipment and him. And that required a total focus on the one firearm.

Me? I'm having WAAAAYYYYY!!!! too much fun shooting different styles of guns from black powder revolvers to IPSC and IDPA production and shooting various calibers. While I fully recognize what this means to my potential for finishing in the final results I can't bring myself to focus so much on one event. For those that do and surpass me I'll be the first to shake their hands along with an honest smile for beating me. We all get different things out of our shooting.
 
BCRider said:
What you say about choosing and sticking to one gun IS the way to go if we want to be the next National or World Champ.

A guy I know that has done very well in past years said he was thinking about getting back to IPSC. But his training regimen called for a winter worth of practice with his old IPSC gun and that he would not so much as pick up and present any other gun into a sight picture stance over that entire time. For him and at his level it was all about doing as best as he could with his equipment and him. And that required a total focus on the one firearm.

Me? I'm having WAAAAYYYYY!!!! too much fun shooting different styles of guns from black powder revolvers to IPSC and IDPA production and shooting various calibers. While I fully recognize what this means to my potential for finishing in the final results I can't bring myself to focus so much on one event. For those that do and surpass me I'll be the first to shake their hands along with an honest smile for beating me. We all get different things out of our shooting.
Click to expand...

You have the idea my friend! We are here for a good time, not a long time. I'm 68 and play with 30 year old guys and have a ball. I'm in Texas for the winter and have my guns as they go everywhere with me as I'm in my RV full time. I joined a club here in Corpus Christi and can shoot IPSC, Steel Challenge and IDPA events just about every week. I have rickety old legs and so don't move like a ballerina but I don't care. When I get back to Canada I'm going to buy an AR so that I can get started in Three Gun and do that when I come back here next winter. Texas is a great place to be a shooter. The shooting sports give me an instant group of good people to hang with wherever I go. As with many pursuits, it doesn't pay to specialize too much when starting out. That's why my X-Five got me into production. Now I don't care where I get slotted. I have an FN outfitted with a Trijicon RMR and so I'll shoot in Open and finish last but happy. Or I can shoot Standard with my 1911 or Production with the SIG. I try not to screw up too badly, stay safe and have fun not in that order.
 
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