Very interesting!
Any chance of some pics of your rifle?
Same exact markings as JPC's?
Any chance of some pics of your rifle?
Same exact markings as JPC's?
"NIAGARA FALLS" Ross Rifle R Sporter 1910 **Niagara Falls** help
- Thread starter jpc
- Start date
I'll do that, once I bring my son over to do the photo-bucket stuff.
Correction on what's on the left side of stock; it is "Niagara Falls" with "64" stencilled in below.
My serial number is 118xx.
Interesting that someone had mentioned the Police Department.
Mine apparently was owned by a former Senior Officer in the local Police Department; it was his hunting rifle.
Unknown where he had got it from.
It's likely jpc and I will get together to find the answers; hopefully he'll post the results.
Correction on what's on the left side of stock; it is "Niagara Falls" with "64" stencilled in below.
My serial number is 118xx.
Interesting that someone had mentioned the Police Department.
Mine apparently was owned by a former Senior Officer in the local Police Department; it was his hunting rifle.
Unknown where he had got it from.
It's likely jpc and I will get together to find the answers; hopefully he'll post the results.
If these rifles were issued in Niagara during WW1, there are several possibilities. There was a large Expeditionary Force that mustered @ Fort Mississauga in Niagara on the Lake (NOTL) and they certainly would have been trained in musketry with rifles from the St.Catharines Armoury and or the Niagara Falls Armoury prior to going to France/Belgium.
As has been mentioned, there were also several militia regiments who were stationed in and around the Niagara Region. I'm aware of 1 Station in Thorold, 1 in Welland, 1 in Ft. Erie, 1 in NOTL and 1 in Niagara Falls. There were 6 units all told {St. Catharines?}. Standing orders were to arrest during daylight and shoot at night any and all trespassers who tread past clear signage. I am not aware of any arrests or discharges having taken place, however there was a mishap with a Lewis gun at the "Table Rock" Niagara Falls post. Seems that while studying the operations of the gun which was layed on a table for demonstration a young man was shot through the head (it "removed" the rear of his head apparently) when the gun went off. There was a round chambered that was not cleared.
I am also aware one of these militia regiments was the 44th Lincoln Welland Regiment, and a few others from the "Links and Winks" (Lincoln, Welland) Regiment with different numbered allocations.
All this is for naught if the rifles were taken out of stores to equip either the Police (each municipality had its own force, inclusive of the Niagara Parks Police...so Niagara Falls had 2 Policing forces) or Militia Regiments during WW2. The later makes more sense IMHO. I would think the Police would be using No4 Mk1's (modern) and leave the (pardon) antiquated Ross' which chambers the .303 as well to the Militia.
As has been mentioned, there were also several militia regiments who were stationed in and around the Niagara Region. I'm aware of 1 Station in Thorold, 1 in Welland, 1 in Ft. Erie, 1 in NOTL and 1 in Niagara Falls. There were 6 units all told {St. Catharines?}. Standing orders were to arrest during daylight and shoot at night any and all trespassers who tread past clear signage. I am not aware of any arrests or discharges having taken place, however there was a mishap with a Lewis gun at the "Table Rock" Niagara Falls post. Seems that while studying the operations of the gun which was layed on a table for demonstration a young man was shot through the head (it "removed" the rear of his head apparently) when the gun went off. There was a round chambered that was not cleared.
I am also aware one of these militia regiments was the 44th Lincoln Welland Regiment, and a few others from the "Links and Winks" (Lincoln, Welland) Regiment with different numbered allocations.
All this is for naught if the rifles were taken out of stores to equip either the Police (each municipality had its own force, inclusive of the Niagara Parks Police...so Niagara Falls had 2 Policing forces) or Militia Regiments during WW2. The later makes more sense IMHO. I would think the Police would be using No4 Mk1's (modern) and leave the (pardon) antiquated Ross' which chambers the .303 as well to the Militia.
Hello JPC. My understanding of the Niagara Falls Home Guard that there was about 40 men. Most Home Guard units were raised
late 1914, early 1915, and disbanded 1915 when the newspapers finally stopped creating public fear about boche sabatoge. Funds
were raised by private donation and rifles purchased were on a contract basis. Service rifles that have the left side stock marking of
Niagara Falls and a rack number demonstrate early possession. I know of #2 and #24 and have seen #11. Your Model R 1910 Sporter
is the 2nd I've seen. The most unusual part is that the service rifles normally are found in mint or unused condition so it is possible
that rifles were received late and to fulfill the contract Sporters were sent. Your NF stamping is identical to the one that appears on the
service rifle. Maybe your ad here will generate some research interest as I would like to see more. If you can get to Burlington I can
show you a service rifle. JOHN
late 1914, early 1915, and disbanded 1915 when the newspapers finally stopped creating public fear about boche sabatoge. Funds
were raised by private donation and rifles purchased were on a contract basis. Service rifles that have the left side stock marking of
Niagara Falls and a rack number demonstrate early possession. I know of #2 and #24 and have seen #11. Your Model R 1910 Sporter
is the 2nd I've seen. The most unusual part is that the service rifles normally are found in mint or unused condition so it is possible
that rifles were received late and to fulfill the contract Sporters were sent. Your NF stamping is identical to the one that appears on the
service rifle. Maybe your ad here will generate some research interest as I would like to see more. If you can get to Burlington I can
show you a service rifle. JOHN
The 19th Lincoln Regiment was HQ'd in St. Catharines with several companies scattered throughout the region. The 44th Lincon and Welland Regiment was HQ'd out of Niagara Falls, with a few companies also scattered throughout the region. Those two units were basically 'it' for the region as far as infantry were concerned. They were amalgamated back in 1936 (along with the rest of the militia units, they amalgamated numbered battalions to form named regiments) to form the 'Lincoln and Welland Regiment', which to this day works out of the Lake St. Armoury in St. Catharines with a company in Welland. The Niagara Armoury has been closed for some time.
As it stands, I have yet to read about any 'Home Guard' units established in Canada during the great war, specifically to guard installations. All of these tasks, as far as I am aware, were taken up by the non-permanent active militia units (and police) around the country, by those members which had not joined the CEF yet. So as far is Niagara is concerned, that means the Lincoln and Welland regiments. There are plenty of pictures in the regimental museum, and online, of those members guarding various installations around Niagara during the Great war and WWII.
Any people to ask would be those who work at the Regimental museum at Butler's Barracks in NOTL.
http://www.lwmuseum.ca/
As for the rifle... my bet goes to the Police as well.
Brock U library will certainly have all the info and more...but there is a metric tonne on the internet as well. X2 on the NRP being a dead end. Again, the individual Municipalities were charged with their own policing back then...there was no such concept as a "region", rather almost a dozen municipalities. Merritton, Chippawa, Thorold, West Lincoln, Lincoln,ect, ect.
Interesting as to why the lean toward the police anyhow? Many of these policing departments didn't even have armed officers on "the beat", what makes some of us believe they required rifles?
These municipal police would not have the authority to guard the installations we're discussing or the authority to carry out the standing orders that were issued by {drum roll please} the army?
I'll bet the Ross' were sporterized at a later date from issued rifles that were in NF armoury, and that they were issued to militia units {hence the lack of use on the barrel}. My information has the Unit in St. Catharines and Thorold being mobilized in 1917, for what turned out to be nothing more than an exercise. There was a similar incident in Toronto earlier in the war, whereby the public was not informed about the "exercise" and it caused much anxiety. This type of exercise in future was to be published to the public well prior to avoid any panic...someone forgot to tell whoever ordered the Niagara exercise. Militia hitched a ride on an electric rail system that existed in the 1900's to Thorold where more Militia boarded the train cars...they were told that a group of armed German's had crossed the Niagara river via Buffalo and they were sent to intercept, Lewis guns in toe
. There never were any Germans, and it was likely the most action these Militia units ever saw.
Interesting as to why the lean toward the police anyhow? Many of these policing departments didn't even have armed officers on "the beat", what makes some of us believe they required rifles?
These municipal police would not have the authority to guard the installations we're discussing or the authority to carry out the standing orders that were issued by {drum roll please} the army?
I'll bet the Ross' were sporterized at a later date from issued rifles that were in NF armoury, and that they were issued to militia units {hence the lack of use on the barrel}. My information has the Unit in St. Catharines and Thorold being mobilized in 1917, for what turned out to be nothing more than an exercise. There was a similar incident in Toronto earlier in the war, whereby the public was not informed about the "exercise" and it caused much anxiety. This type of exercise in future was to be published to the public well prior to avoid any panic...someone forgot to tell whoever ordered the Niagara exercise. Militia hitched a ride on an electric rail system that existed in the 1900's to Thorold where more Militia boarded the train cars...they were told that a group of armed German's had crossed the Niagara river via Buffalo and they were sent to intercept, Lewis guns in toe
. There never were any Germans, and it was likely the most action these Militia units ever saw.Here are Old Sarge's Ross pics.
It's a 1910-R factory sporter.
To my eyes they sure look similar, including the font of the Niagara Falls stamp and the model of rifle used.
Click link.
http://s94.photobucket.com/user/cantom_2006/slideshow/Ross 1910-R Niagara Falls
It's a 1910-R factory sporter.
To my eyes they sure look similar, including the font of the Niagara Falls stamp and the model of rifle used.
Click link.
http://s94.photobucket.com/user/cantom_2006/slideshow/Ross 1910-R Niagara Falls
Thanks cantom. By the way, there was another unit in the Niagara Area during WW I. It was the 2nd Dragoons. Two squadrons, "A" in St. Catharines, and "D" in Welland were assigned to patrol the Welland Canal until 1916. In the 1930s it amalgamated with the 10th Dragoons, to become the 2nd/10th Dragoons. After WWII it became the 57th Light Anti-Aircraft Regiment, manning 40mm Bofors.
Do you have any idea about the Home Guard, and/or whether there was a Home Guard unit at all in the NF area? I did read what Tyler said.
I've seen lots of Rosses with Home Guard stamped on them, but they were all Mk III's.
I've seen lots of Rosses with Home Guard stamped on them, but they were all Mk III's.
Doubtful, as these militia units are what recruited and filled the numbered battalions who went overseas to the CEF, and later the Canadian Corps. While on paper those 'units' stayed in Canada, their members, wearing their cap-badges and unit I.D. are who fought overseas. So while you are technically correct, there is good reason the Otter commission gave battle honours over to militia units after the war when the numbered battalions were disbanded; because it was their members who earned them.
Though I'm sure you know, there are lots of people who forget that there was no 'Canadian Army' in 1914. It was made up solely of a small active Permanent Militia, and a much larger body of Non-permanent Militia. It was the non-permanent militia who provided the majority of citizen soldiers who saw active service in the front lines. Though they saw service in 'numbered battalions' thanks to Sam Hughes who took a look at the deployment plans, scrapped them, and made up his own on the spot. Makes for interesting reading either way.
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No. They are specific production, made specifically for the Home Guard. They even have special HG serial numbers and HG stampings on the stock. They are not UK contract Rosses. They do not have military viewer proof marks.
Tyler; you're certainly more knowledgeable than myself on the subject and the time period. I didn't know that the CEF wasn't Canadian "Army". I assumed the Canadian Military {read army} was formed during the Boar War {1898/99?}. I am aware that recruitment saw men being incorporated into Militia Regiments, but when in time of war I thought these Militia Regiments were formed into battle groups {CEF} and operated autonomously of British command? {autonomous, but in collaboration with, and in support of British command...but still Canadian Army} Gen. Arthur Currie at Vimy took CEF command to a different level where "collaboration and support" were concerned. He simply wouldn't do what British high command demanded of him...thank Gawd!
Back to the Niagara Ross' why do we think they're police rifles? Wouldn't the police force proudly mark them? They do with everything else they own/issue.
*edit* Vimy Ridge. April 9th, 1917. It's the 97th Anniversary tomorrow!
This is about the best writeup I have found on the Home Guard Rosses.
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=15516
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=15516
