Nitro proofed

brybenn

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This may seem like a dumb question however im going to ask it anyway as ive spent hours reading online with no clear answer
Every gun i have thats stamped nitro proofed gives a weight not a pressure. Say if a gun is nitro proofed for 1 1/8oz at what velocity and or pressure is that in reference to? Light trap loads or heavier magnum loads?
Could it take a lower weight at a higher velocity?

My older guns are short chambered and i use rst lite factory rounds in them to be safe but i have a 1880s jd dougal which has a set of modern fluid steel barrels and 2.75" chambers proofed for 1 1/8oz. I have alot of factory 1oz loads at a listed velocity of 1290fps which im sure is fine for a days hunt but ive also seen factory loads of 1 1/8oz at 1450fps which got me wondering about the entire concern
Anyone care to shed light on my wonderings?
 
You may have to look into the proof house and see what their specs were in those years. I think there are UK websites for Vintage shotguns where the specs are listed, or you can ask in their forums. Good luck!
BTW where can one obtain RST short shells in Canada?

Here is an example of an article on London Proof marks. Look around the VG website for more:
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/rules-of-proof-4-london-
 
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I consulted Burrard, which is a thorough but not infallible resource. He has a table that lists pressure by case length for given gauge. The proof mark stamped on the flats indicates that gun is proofed for the maximum service charge for the shot weight given. There's no reason why you couldn't use a heavier shot weight, as long as the pressures are below that for the service charge. Shotshell manufacturers were expected to keep their shells within pressure limits set for the case length, regardless of shot weight or velocity.

Pressures were measured in tons per square inch, as opposed to L.U.P. or P.S.I. as would be on this continent. Pressures were measured at 1-inch and 6-inches. The maximum 1" pressure for a 2 3/4" case was 3.9 tpi, the minimum 2.3 tpi, and the "standard" pressure was listed at 3.1 tpi. For a 2 1/2" case the pressures were 3.5, 2.0, and 2.7 tpi respectively. He doesn't list shot charge associated with those pressures.

My suspicion is that American shotshells are loaded to higher pressures than their British counterparts, regardless of whether they're labelled "light" loads or not. I won't use American shells in my doubles any more. I've had problems with the strikers sticking in the primers, making the gun difficult to open, though the construction of the primer may be the culprit as well.

I've had decent results using Kent target loads, as well as Eley when I can find it.
 
Brybenn, 9.3 Mauser is on the right track. British guns all underwent proofing before initial sale and even used guns must be within the specification of the latest stamped proof. To sell an out of proof gun in England or Europe is still illegal. In Canada and USA where we never required government controlled proofing each manufacturer is responsible for their own proofing on new firearms, but to no recognized standard. Go figure. Your beloved vintage Parker or Fox or Purdey or Greener could have been bored out in this country to remove pitting to the point that the barrels are paper thin and most prospective buyers either don't know or don't care.
British proof is a large and complex subject and the requirements changed quite a few times as new advances such as choke boring, smokeless nitro powders and different case lengths came along. The markings were changed each time the parameters were changed, sometimes very subtly and at least once these changes came three times within ten years. Proof is a very complex and misunderstood subject, here are a few basics regarding British proof, European proofs use different markings but similar standards.
British proofing has been in operation for over 250 years. The original purpose was to weed out substandard and dangerous barrels.
The system is based on black powder standards even though the standard proofing today is a nitro proof for modern ammo. Our ammo still follows this system, eg 2 2/4 or 3 dram target loads, this is the 2 3/4 or 3 dram black powder equivalent.
The British system presumes a standard black powder equivalent for all loads up until recently when they changed over to the CIP European standard.
The pre 1875 proofs gave the bore size but no indication of appropriate ammo
By 1875 choke boring was becoming common so choke could be indicated as 12 B, 14 M meaning a 12 bore with a 14 bore muzzle.
In 1887 the weight of the proof load of shot was included, such as 1 1/8 , 1 1/4 or 1 3/8 etc. Using a table this referred to 2 1/2", 2 3/4" or 3" ammo. All of these were at the same black powder equivalent and velocity, an increased powder charge driving a heavier shot load but at the standard velocity and pressure.
In 1896 Nitro Proof first shows up because the new smokeless powders had different burning characteristics and were damaging some otherwise in proof guns. From this point until now guns marked Nitro Proof, NP, BNP were designed and each one proof tested with a special proof overload to be safe with modern ammo. All guns were now getting provisional black powder proofing and most were also nitro proofed However not all guns received Nitro proof, it cost a little extra and was sometimes omitted to save a little money, especially for guns intended for export to North America where nobody knew or cared what proof was. British Nitro proof did not become compulsory until the 1920's, there are some guns around that appear modern but were never nitro proofed.
Eventually in the early 1900's the actual case length markings were added, first in inches, later in millimeters. Also actual bore size was added.
So there are many (most) vintage British shotguns with no markings of gauge or suitable ammo unless you can decipher the proof hieroglyphics. Ditto markings regarding the intended ammunition. The British ammo was all produced to the same pressures and velocity, regardless of case length. They had a 12 gauge 3" and a 10 gauge 3 1/2 " in the 1800's but they were not at higher magnum velocities or higher pressures like North American ammo, they just delivered a heavier payload. Modern North American ammo can be higher pressure than these guns were designed and proofed for and it is very hard to get the manufacturer's actual pressures for any given load. Never assume anything, some heavily used target loads, while of modest ballistics actually produce maximum North American pressures. Personally I use Gamebore or RST with published modest pressures in my vintage guns and of course my reloads where I can control the intended pressures.
Also of note, because an out of proof gun can't be sold in Britain or Europe they are sometimes exported to countries like Canada or USA where there are no proof laws, few people can properly measure barrels, nobody knows, nobody cares. EXCEPT on valuable guns, even here knowledgeable buyers insist on in proof guns when the price goes up. Nobody is buying out of proof Purdeys or Holland and Hollands.
 
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I get my rst shells from clay at prophet river. It may take some time if not in stock but he always comes thru for me

I mostly reload for my 2.5" guns now but still use rst loads as i find they pattern well
Would love to try the gamebore felt wadded 2.5" but cant find a pressure rating but theyre said to be designed for vintage doubles
 
Brybenn, the Gamebore loads (or others) with felt wads are legislated to be used in some parts of Britain and parts of Europe to prevent plastic wads being left behind. The felt wad ammunition delivers very even patterns in an original gun but if your barrels have been honed a time or two over the years they could be .010",020" or even .030" over the standard bore size and therefore because the felt wads expand very little under pressure in the bore can result in blowby and blown patterns in oversized bores. Plastic wads expand to fill the bore, even in ridiculously oversized ones like Browning's Invector Plus and do not have this limitation. 150 years ago the Brits were also sometimes using oversize bored 12 gauge guns with 10 gauge bores but to overcome the large size difference these guns used thin walled brass cases which took larger diameter wads than the standard thicker paper cases. Today these loads can be duplicated by using our thinner plastic cases such as Federal Gold Medal.
Gamebore ammunition is or was distributed in Canada by Kent Cartridge Company and the Canadian distributor for Kent ( in Ontario) normally carries all gauges in most useful shot sizes in stock. You can't buy directly from them but any gun store that stocks Kent ammo can order it for you by the flat if they want to. Cabelas won't.
 
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I have a pretty good selection of the Gamebore Traditional 2 1/2” cartridges in 12 and 16 gauge. A mix of shot size, paper and plastic shells, fibre or modern wads. Kent was very good in the past about answering my questions regarding pressure levels. All were in the 7000 to 8500 psi range IIRC with the 16s being higher than the 12s as usual. I also have a bunch of their Pure Gold which is typically a more standard pressure level cartridge.

However Gamebore no longer markets the Traditional cartridges and the Pure Gold has been replaced by the Regal 2 1/2”. And with speeds up over 1400 fps I’m guessing they are up around close to maximum allowable pressure levels. If anyone has other info, would love to hear it.

I always liked having two options in 2 1/2” cartridges of moderate pressure levels, RST and Gamebore but it looks like Gamebore may have removed themselves from that specialized market.
 
Thanks for the update on Gamebore ammunition Canvas back, good to know. I still have 3-4 flats of assorted Gamebore ammo so I haven't needed to buy any for awhile. Perhaps they could be persuaded to bring in a pallet of the Traditional or Gold if enough shooters asked for it. Good ammo.
 
Thanks for the update on Gamebore ammunition Canvas back, good to know. I still have 3-4 flats of assorted Gamebore ammo so I haven't needed to buy any for awhile. Perhaps they could be persuaded to bring in a pallet of the Traditional or Gold if enough shooters asked for it. Good ammo.

I could be wrong Ashcroft but I don’t think it’s a matter of what Gamebore product gets imported to NA. I believe I’m checking the IK site. That low pressure Traditional stuff is just gone.
 
Thanks for the update on Gamebore ammunition Canvas back, good to know. I still have 3-4 flats of assorted Gamebore ammo so I haven't needed to buy any for awhile. Perhaps they could be persuaded to bring in a pallet of the Traditional or Gold if enough shooters asked for it. Good ammo.

They had Regal Gold and Pure Gold in stock just lately. Traditional Game as well. They have always carried lots of the Gamebore hunting line as long as I have been dealing with them. Not easy finding a retailer though.
 
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They had Regal Gold and Pure Gold in stock just lately. Traditional Game as well. They have always carried lots of the Gamebore hunting line as long as I have been dealing with them. Not easy finding a retailer though.

I was in their warehouse in Sept. Had as good a look around as I could manage. No Traditional Game....maybe there was some I couldn’t see. They were clearing out some Regal loads for 16 ga. I specifically asked about Traditional Game in 16 and was told “all gone”.
 
I was in their warehouse in Sept. Had as good a look around as I could manage. No Traditional Game....maybe there was some I couldn’t see. They were clearing out some Regal loads for 16 ga. I specifically asked about Traditional Game in 16 and was told “all gone”.

12 and 20 were all I saw this month. Black Gold game as well, not exactly low pressure.
 
Gamebore ammunition is or was distributed in Canada by Kent Cartridge Company and the Canadian distributor for Kent ( in Ontario) normally carries all gauges in most useful shot sizes in stock. You can't buy directly from them but any gun store that stocks Kent ammo can order it for you by the flat if they want to. Cabelas won't.

All the more reason to buy from an independant shop.
 
Dilly not sure what part of sw ontario youre in but the last single flat of rst was $209 shipped to my door from prophet river and im down between windsor and london
 
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