Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
As the 'icing on the cake' for mine, as/the photo in post # 14, when I got the opportunity to pick up an original I couldn't turn it down
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No.5.Mk.1 Lee-Enfield-why have the value of these guns gone stagnant.
- Thread starter drm3m
- Start date
As the 'icing on the cake' for mine, as/the photo in post # 14, when I got the opportunity to pick up an original I couldn't turn it down
.
We had one years ago.
Dad didn't like it, said it didn't shoot too good.
Maybe some folks find otherwise.
But Dad can shoot pretty good...he said I never tasted Beef til I was 5...all deer. But that No. 5 got pretty dusty while he harvested lots with a 30-30.
Still a cool gun though
Dad didn't like it, said it didn't shoot too good.
Maybe some folks find otherwise.
But Dad can shoot pretty good...he said I never tasted Beef til I was 5...all deer. But that No. 5 got pretty dusty while he harvested lots with a 30-30.
Still a cool gun though
I suspect that the substantial "somewhat recent" availability of inexpensive Russian guns, Nagants, RC k98s, TT-33 pistols etc. has had an effect on market values.
Refurbed, forced matched guns have flooded the market.
Great for the consumer from a cost stand point. (I bought a few Nagants and TT-33s)
The prices may have had something to do with it.
If I had to do it again would I have purchased these refurbed Russian guns.....I am not sure?
TT-33s 1942 and 1945 manufactured.
A mix of Tula and Izhevsk 1943,1944 and 1945.
I guess I bought them because I already owned the PPSh-41 (CA) shown below. (Tula 1943)
As well as the Model SSch-36 Russian helmet dated 1939.
(collectors can go wacky....on occasion.)
From a collector view point it may be a different situation.
Perhaps the value of some other (original finish) collectable guns has suffered because of this?
It may take years before the market re-adjusts to this reality.
I doubt that the value for nice original matching K98s has been affected by the number of inexpensive RCs that flooded the market.
I say this as a collector not a shooter.
IMHO There will become a more pronounced two tier market as time passes...original and the others.
The cost of certain ammunition and the frail economy, are as many have said, also a major factor.
Thanks for all your thoughts on the subject of the No.5 Mk.1 Lee-Enfield rifle (a.k.a. Jungle Carbine) and the various factors affecting their value.....I have learned stuff that I did not know.
David
P.S.
Johnn Peterson, I did what you did years ago.
I bought the bayonet.
Refurbed, forced matched guns have flooded the market.
Great for the consumer from a cost stand point. (I bought a few Nagants and TT-33s)
The prices may have had something to do with it.
If I had to do it again would I have purchased these refurbed Russian guns.....I am not sure?
TT-33s 1942 and 1945 manufactured.
A mix of Tula and Izhevsk 1943,1944 and 1945.
I guess I bought them because I already owned the PPSh-41 (CA) shown below. (Tula 1943)
As well as the Model SSch-36 Russian helmet dated 1939.
(collectors can go wacky....on occasion.)
From a collector view point it may be a different situation.
Perhaps the value of some other (original finish) collectable guns has suffered because of this?
It may take years before the market re-adjusts to this reality.
I doubt that the value for nice original matching K98s has been affected by the number of inexpensive RCs that flooded the market.
I say this as a collector not a shooter.
IMHO There will become a more pronounced two tier market as time passes...original and the others.
The cost of certain ammunition and the frail economy, are as many have said, also a major factor.
Thanks for all your thoughts on the subject of the No.5 Mk.1 Lee-Enfield rifle (a.k.a. Jungle Carbine) and the various factors affecting their value.....I have learned stuff that I did not know.
David
P.S.
Johnn Peterson, I did what you did years ago.
I bought the bayonet.
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When more people decide they have to have a No. 5 maybe the prices will rise? They are not that rare. I see one or 2 for sale at every gun show I attend. I cannot say the same for nice full wood No.4's anymore. Nice No. 4's are pushing the $600.00 or more mark from what I see. Yes the No. 5 bayonet seems to command the same price as a No. 5 rifle but beware that the No. 5 bayonet market is flooded with repros from India. I know someone who paid $250.00 for a No. 5 bayonet only to find it did not fit his No. 5 rifle and after some research learned it was a repro from India.
What I'd recently read was that they were (comparatively) lightweight versions, for use by paratroops.
As luck would have it my dad WAS a paratrooper. Dug up one of his post WWII occupation duty pics, and lo and behold, No 5 Mk 1.
This may be BS, but I was once told that No5 bayonets were rare because they were also issued with the L2 Stirling SMG (C1 SMG) and that in order to turn in the SMG, unit armourers had to have the complete set, hence surplussed bayonets were purchased to replace "lost" bayonets - anyone know if this is correct?
Okay, guys, here's what we do:
1. We buy up ALL the JCs at bargain-basement prices.
THEN
2. We find a writer, get him drunk and tell him about the Emergency. Used a lot of JCs in that one, remember.
3. The Writer turns out a series of scripts for a television series.
4. We find a sharp Agent to sell the scripts to Hollywood.
5. We RENT OUT our banged-up JCs to the guys making the movies.
6. When the TV series hits Number 1, we sell our extra JCs for muy mucho dinero, zoom down to Oaxaca or Playa del Carmen, sit in the sun, sip tequila and ogle the senoritas until they haul us all off to the old fogeys' home.
Howzat?
.
1. We buy up ALL the JCs at bargain-basement prices.
THEN
2. We find a writer, get him drunk and tell him about the Emergency. Used a lot of JCs in that one, remember.
3. The Writer turns out a series of scripts for a television series.
4. We find a sharp Agent to sell the scripts to Hollywood.
5. We RENT OUT our banged-up JCs to the guys making the movies.
6. When the TV series hits Number 1, we sell our extra JCs for muy mucho dinero, zoom down to Oaxaca or Playa del Carmen, sit in the sun, sip tequila and ogle the senoritas until they haul us all off to the old fogeys' home.
Howzat?
.
This... +1!
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Cool info and thanks for sharing. In addition to the No. 5 Mk 1, or what also has come to be known as the Jungle Carbine, I vaguely seem to recall another shorter version of the Lee Enfield. Anyone know??
The Australians played around with a shorthened version of the SMLE No1 MKIII* called the No.6, but only a few hundreds were produced for trials. I think Badger has one that came from the Estate of the B. Stern Collection. I met Mr. Bruce Stern once at the Tulsa Gunshow, he was sitting at the table of Mr. Noel Shott (Collector/Dealer/Author).
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Thanks. Any length and/or other specific details on the Australian variation??
Sadly, my knowledge of the Lee Enfield somewhat limited to say the least. Curious though, but was there ever a shortened version of it, made available for tank groups or others along that or other more specialized outfits??
I remember when the Lee Enfield No. 5 Jungle Carbine comanded a higher price than it's No. 4 counterpart.........
It was at the local Sears store (Simpson-Sears back then) in 1961
The No. 4 sold for $9.99
and
The No. 5 sold for $12.99
Cheers,
B
It was at the local Sears store (Simpson-Sears back then) in 1961
The No. 4 sold for $9.99
and
The No. 5 sold for $12.99
Cheers,
B
- Any length and/or other specific details on the Australian variation??
Follow link below to Info on Australian experimental shorthened versions:
ht tp://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=115-australia
- Curious though, but was there ever a shortened version of it, made available for tank groups or others along that or other more specialized outfits??
No such beasts, but some Faked versions were made up by NavyArms/Gibbs some years ago for commercial sales.
Written by the late Author Skip Stratton:
No. 1 'Tanker Carbine' Overall length 39-40 inches; 20-21 inch barrel, with fore-end shortened and nose cap moved back. Also called “No. 1 Shortened and Lightened” rifle or “No. 6 Tanker Carbine” or “No. 6 Shortened and Lightened” rifle. These are probably either aftermarket modifications or outright fakes. The Australian government did experiment with a shortened and lightened No. 1 rifle, but only a hundred prototypes were made. These have grooved fore-ends, lightening flutes on the barrel knox forms, and extensive lightening cuts on the receivers. Also, the Lithgow factory prototypes all have aperture backsights mounted on the charger bridge and solid handguards. All bear “XP” serial number prefixes. Some unofficial experimenting was done by a number of unit armourers during WWII in an attempt to create a shortened and lightened version of the No. 1 rifle, and it is possible that a few of these early experiments have survived. The barrels were shortened, and the nose caps were reset, but most retained the barrel-mounted tangent sights. These are historically interesting, but they are not “official” Lithgow factory prototypes. The easiest way to tell a recent replica from a WWII-vintage experimental model is to remove the nose cap. If you find freshly-cut wood, you know what you have! Also, many of the recent fakes have a hex-nut rather than a standard oblong nose cap nut securing the rear nose cap screw, and the fore-end stud and stud spring are missing.
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No. 2A “Tanker” Carbine Overall length 39-1/2 inches, with a 20-1/2 inch barrel. Fore-end shortened and nose cap moved back. There ain’t no such thing! There never was. This is strictly an aftermarket modification. Such a shortened version of the Ishapore 2A/2A1 rifle was never even considered by the Indian government--never mind adopted--or by anyone else, for that matter.
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No. 4 “Tanker” Carbine Overall length 39-1/2 inches, with a 20-1/2 inch barrel. Fore-end shortened and nose cap moved back. As above, there ain’t no such thing. Strictly an aftermarket modification.
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No. 4 Shortened and Lightened Overall length 39-42 inches; 20-23 inch barrel, with fore-end shortened and nose cap moved back. Probably an aftermarket modification. The Canadian government did experiment with a shortened and lightened No. 4 rifle, and a few dozen prototypes were made; however, these have one-piece stocks! Also, the barrels and receivers were lightened with extensive milling. All were conversions of Long Branch rifles only. If you see a two-piece stock or a receiver than doesn’t have any lightening cuts, you have an aftermarket modification or replica. The British version of the shortened and lightened No. 4 rifle is the No. 5 rifle (see below).
Follow link below to Info on Australian experimental shorthened versions:
ht tp://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=115-australia
- Curious though, but was there ever a shortened version of it, made available for tank groups or others along that or other more specialized outfits??
No such beasts, but some Faked versions were made up by NavyArms/Gibbs some years ago for commercial sales.
Written by the late Author Skip Stratton:
No. 1 'Tanker Carbine' Overall length 39-40 inches; 20-21 inch barrel, with fore-end shortened and nose cap moved back. Also called “No. 1 Shortened and Lightened” rifle or “No. 6 Tanker Carbine” or “No. 6 Shortened and Lightened” rifle. These are probably either aftermarket modifications or outright fakes. The Australian government did experiment with a shortened and lightened No. 1 rifle, but only a hundred prototypes were made. These have grooved fore-ends, lightening flutes on the barrel knox forms, and extensive lightening cuts on the receivers. Also, the Lithgow factory prototypes all have aperture backsights mounted on the charger bridge and solid handguards. All bear “XP” serial number prefixes. Some unofficial experimenting was done by a number of unit armourers during WWII in an attempt to create a shortened and lightened version of the No. 1 rifle, and it is possible that a few of these early experiments have survived. The barrels were shortened, and the nose caps were reset, but most retained the barrel-mounted tangent sights. These are historically interesting, but they are not “official” Lithgow factory prototypes. The easiest way to tell a recent replica from a WWII-vintage experimental model is to remove the nose cap. If you find freshly-cut wood, you know what you have! Also, many of the recent fakes have a hex-nut rather than a standard oblong nose cap nut securing the rear nose cap screw, and the fore-end stud and stud spring are missing.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No. 2A “Tanker” Carbine Overall length 39-1/2 inches, with a 20-1/2 inch barrel. Fore-end shortened and nose cap moved back. There ain’t no such thing! There never was. This is strictly an aftermarket modification. Such a shortened version of the Ishapore 2A/2A1 rifle was never even considered by the Indian government--never mind adopted--or by anyone else, for that matter.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No. 4 “Tanker” Carbine Overall length 39-1/2 inches, with a 20-1/2 inch barrel. Fore-end shortened and nose cap moved back. As above, there ain’t no such thing. Strictly an aftermarket modification.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No. 4 Shortened and Lightened Overall length 39-42 inches; 20-23 inch barrel, with fore-end shortened and nose cap moved back. Probably an aftermarket modification. The Canadian government did experiment with a shortened and lightened No. 4 rifle, and a few dozen prototypes were made; however, these have one-piece stocks! Also, the barrels and receivers were lightened with extensive milling. All were conversions of Long Branch rifles only. If you see a two-piece stock or a receiver than doesn’t have any lightening cuts, you have an aftermarket modification or replica. The British version of the shortened and lightened No. 4 rifle is the No. 5 rifle (see below).
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Thanks for all the info JP. It should help broaden what I know of the Lee Enfield. Thanks again.
. Thanks again.I have had trouble finding period photos showing the No.5 in a WWII context.
If anyone has some photos that they could post...that would be great.
This is all that I found.
I don't know where this was taken?
Post war Hong Kong Police I suspect?
David
If anyone has some photos that they could post...that would be great.
This is all that I found.
I don't know where this was taken?
Post war Hong Kong Police I suspect?
David
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LE #5 were widely used by Brit & local security force during the 50's colonial emergency in Kenya & Malaya. By late 50's, Brit army ditched their LE#5 and switched to L1A1.
HK police never had LE#5. They used LE#1 Mk3, LE#4 & US M1 carbine during that period.
HK police never had LE#5. They used LE#1 Mk3, LE#4 & US M1 carbine during that period.
