No more Vortex for me
- Thread starter emerson
- Start date
He also said within the last couple of weeks that SoCom sent their whole new shipment of Schmidt & Benders back because they wouldn't track and told everyone to buy an older S&B but not new production until they get this sorted out .
Your argument is a little flawed.... There's a reason the Razor HD II sells so well - it's US$2499 for a 4.5-27x56 version - the S&B PMII 3-27x56 is between US$4999 and US$6999. The Nightforce Beast 5-25x56 is US$3800, the Tangent Theta 5-25x56 is US$4400. Swaro and Zeiss don't really offer anything comparable. Hensoldt 3.5-26x56 is US$6999.
The "old" S&B PMII 5-25x56 that's been around for ages, is around US$3300.... Check EuroOptic prices in the US for yourself.
Vortex overpriced??? Yes, in Canada it might be stupidly priced by some money hungry dealers.... But it's a GREAT scope, and for the money, pretty much unbeatable. And comes with lifetime warranty.
S&B PMII, for all that money, only has a MEASLY 2 year warranty. I own quite a few S&B PMII's, and I own a Razor Gen II, and I prefer my Razor to the S&B's.
I have had 3 S&B PMII "failures" that needed to be sent back to S&B in 2011 and 2012, and fortunately I got my money back from them - not something they like to admit. LOL
@Globalstar66 that is a very rational and compelling post you have made. I can't believe/was not aware that S&B only offers a 2 year warranty, is it only for that model line?
I would not be swayed from the Vortex HD offerings unless a comparable Leuopold was not there but that is not a given.
I would not be swayed from the Vortex HD offerings unless a comparable Leuopold was not there but that is not a given.
I own a variety of S&B scopes - all bought between 2011 and 2014 and they all have just a 2 year warranty. Used to be 30 years, and then in 2010 or 2011, they reduced it to 2 years. The following have a 10 year warranty - Zenith, Klassik and Hungaria line.
See warranty here: http://www.schmidtundbender.de/en/service/warranty.html
Not sure where you're getting your data. Grouser River has the HD 5-25x56 listed at $3449 and the Nightforce 5-25x56 at $3349(SFP) if you want the ATACR with FFP then it's $3899. Same price for the HD at RDSC. Hirsch Precision has the ATACR 5-25 on for $3742 in the FFP and $3191 in SFP.
Schmidt and Bender from Wolverine is PMII in the 5-25 range for $3685-$5795. You can get either S&B or Nightforce for similar money and with a far better brand reputation than Vortex. Hensoldt is tops and if you're after the best then price is no option. Same for Tangent Theta, although they're only $6200 CDN. Even the BEAST from Nightforce can be had for $5000-$5700 CDN.
The reality is that the HD line is a quality optic, but it is not $3449 level of quality. Vortex has a reputation for a great warranty not great products. Their solution to a defective product is replacement over repair which tells the story about how they value their own products. The warranty offered by the other guys is sometimes rather lame by comparison to Vortex. The difference being that they usually honour warranty outside of the official timeline and more importantly you will likely never need it in the first place. If Vortex had a similar short time warranty they would be out of business.
Well I'm in the same boat as some. I was talked into by a salesman to put a diamondback on a 338 win mag. He said will handle the recoil just fine well it sure didn't. So I just sent it back and I guess I'll see how this amazing warranty is. I hope that they will upgrade me to a different model.
Yup, too bad that Henry and Gillian got cut off by Vortex, best deal in redburg and then some.
Maybe you should re-read my post.... LOL
I quoted all the scopes with EuroOptics in the USA's pricing. And merely because the US is the largest market by far for these top end scopes. And I did state that Canadian Vortex pricing is out to lunch.
And believe me, again in my post - I had 3 S&B's that needed warranty repair/replacement and they were outside the 2 year warranty period, and I had the fight of my life to get them to acknowledge they were faulty. So easy for you to state they will stand by their product outside of warranty, if you've NOT had to deal with it personally....
I got to actually sit down in a meeting with S&B CEO Dr Karl-Heinz Gerlach and Dr Karen Hesse, and even then they tried to "wiggle" out of admitting the scopes were faulty.
I know some of the top guys at Vortex very, very well - and they are great people to deal with. I spend quite a lot of time with them at SHOT Show every year, including having dinner with them - they are awesome people. And yes, they DO have great customer service and a great warranty - and they DO NOT try and wiggle themselves out of warranty issues, like I have experienced 1st hand with S&B.
S&B today, are nowhere near as great as they used to be.
And lastly, why compare S&B's old, old 5-25 with the Vortex, NF Beast, Tangent etc.... Take their "newer" 3-27x56 and compare pricing on THAT.... And also, why compare a Nightforce ATACR 2nd focal with the other 1st focal scopes - not apples to apples.
The Vortex is US$2500, and the others are all between US$3500 and US$7000. Point is, for the money, Vortex is a great brand - if they were not, they would never have been as successful as they are today. And they cater for a very large market - from real entry level to pretty much matching the best in the industry - and that's what people want. If you don't like them, stop complaining and move on. You have choice in this world - if you don't like something, nobody is forcing you to buy it. Let the people BE that want to buy it - why try force your opinion down our throats?
But whatever - I'm not going to waste more time arguing with you about stupid crap. I have better things to do.
Hitzy - with all due respect - personally, I don't think Bushnell has a scope that is as solidly built and as nice/good as the Razor Gen II 4.5-27.... I have handled them at SHOT, and not saying they're bad at all - just not as well built as the Gen II Razor. But, it's just MY opinion. Many people would be really happy with the Bushnells.
And looking at what the top 50 shooters in PRS are using, Vortex has the largest following now. And only Vortex, Kahles and Nightforce have been gaining popularity over the past 4 years there - the others have all shrunk their share of use. Look how badly S&B is faring compared to 4 years ago in PRS top-50 shooters. LOL. I like S&B, but they have really not come to market with anything new under $4000 in the 25x mag range for 10+ years now. And it shows if you look at what the top shooters are using today.
And looking at what the top 50 shooters in PRS are using, Vortex has the largest following now. And only Vortex, Kahles and Nightforce have been gaining popularity over the past 4 years there - the others have all shrunk their share of use. Look how badly S&B is faring compared to 4 years ago in PRS top-50 shooters. LOL. I like S&B, but they have really not come to market with anything new under $4000 in the 25x mag range for 10+ years now. And it shows if you look at what the top shooters are using today.
So things changed that much since 2014?
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/10/24/best-tactical-scopes-what-the-pros-use/
Yeah I guess.... In 2014, not much around ito competition to S&B. Tangent Theta was not yet available, Nightforce FFP ATACR was not yet out, NF Beast was a struggle to get and they had some issues with it still at the time, Razor Gen II was not yet available (well, only a few were around)....
Once these others hit the ranges, things started changing pretty quickly.
Once these others hit the ranges, things started changing pretty quickly.
So things changed that much since 2014?
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/10/24/best-tactical-scopes-what-the-pros-use/
If you look at the stats for 2015, 40% of the top 100 shooters were running Vortex while S&B made up only 8%.
Which would make sense....not everyone can afford the top gear, so the more numbers you throw in the lower the bar gets. The top 10 or 20 seems more relevant to me. How many Razor's vs how many of the Bushnell XRS were in the top 10 or 20? Like I said, they are much more comparable in build, with the Vortex costing 30% more at least.
Finally someone in this debate that actually knows what they are talking about. I think we we have a few keyboard legends here with little to no field experience. Thanks for your input Globalstar66, sounds like you actually know what your talking about.
Cheers!!
My bad... The stats I gave were for the top 50, not top 100. In the top 15, 73% of shooters were running Vortex (11 of 15) while only 7% (1 of 15) were running S&B. The others were 1 Kahles, 1 US Optics and 1 Bushnell.
These guys are the top shooters in the country and honestly I don't think the $1000 difference in scope cost would make a difference to them. Especially when you consider they shoot thousands of rounds per year for practice and competitions. There costs for shooting out multiple barrels per year likely equal the cost difference between Vortex and any of the other Manufacturers.
So you're admitting that your opinion is biased as you seem to have a personal relationship with the folks at Vortex. That alone tells me all I need to hear, as you're likely blinded by your emotional commitment to your friends.
I'm not sure why you'r comparing US prices as we are not Americans, we don't live in America and we don't pay US prices. Although I did look at Euro Optic and did the conversion and the prices are exactly the same as we would pay in Canada, in fact almost to the dollar to the prices I quoted from the several sponsors.
I was comparing the 5-25x56 S&B's to the same power range Vortex which is why I chose those. Old design or not they're still excellent optics. Vortex doesn't wiggle out of warranty partially because the customer has paid for the scope probably several times over so offering a replacement is no skin off their back.
I don't necessarily disagree with the bold above, but apparently personal opinions(coupled with experience and facts) are not valid and yet you somehow feel yours is??
How many of those shooters are sponsored by Vortex? Competition is great for testing the shooter but it's not the harshest of conditions for the gear. Vortex Razors may well be decent optics but the rest of their products are poorly built and like all their products grossly over priced. I find it unethical for a company to take people's money with inferior products at the bottom end to build brand recognition so they can justify their prices on the high end products.
If you look at the testing and performance protocols for a Nightforce scope for example you'll see that it far exceeds that of Vortex. As an example Nightforce tests their optics(NXS and above which is almost all of their scopes) function at -80'f to 160'f. They subject their scopes to that temperature range over the period of just one hour. The scopes are submerged in a pressure vessel simulating 100 feet for 24 hours. Vortex says their scopes(their Razor line) are waterproof but don't indicate to what depth or what standard they are waterproof. Nightforce tests to 1250 g's both positive and negative, Vortex as far as I can find don't publish any numbers about their testing regimen or operating temps. One would think that if you do rigorous testing and are proud of it you would boast about it.
What a waste of good breathe arguing with you.... I do have a good relationship with the guys at Vortex, but so do I with the people at S&B in Germany - and I think the Gen 2 Razor is better value for money.
And I used US pricing just as a comparison.... But You read into everything what ever you want anyway.
I'm done arguing with a troll. You probably do not even own any of the above to have a solid opinion anyway.
And I used US pricing just as a comparison.... But You read into everything what ever you want anyway.
I'm done arguing with a troll. You probably do not even own any of the above to have a solid opinion anyway.
