No physical license due to COVID delay... can I still transport and use firearms?

Boblo Rosscobar

Boblo Rosscobar

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Hi all,

Three weeks ago I received my PAL, purchased a rifle, and joined a local gun club.

I want to go to the gun club to shoot my rifle, but during the orientation they said that I should always have my physical PAL card on me in case the CFO comes by to check to make sure everyone is licensed. I haven't received my card in the mail yet.

This morning I phoned the CFO, and they said that they are weeks behind and it could be September before I receive my physical card. I asked about the legal requirement of having my physical card on me, and the person on the phone had no idea, so they deferred to the Ontario CFO and transferred me over. When I spoke with the Ontario CFO, I asked them what the legal requirement was with regard to having my physical license on me. Their response "It's like a drivers license. You should have it on you." I asked if I would be breaking any laws, and they said again "It's like a drivers license. You should have it on you". Not very helpful.

Apparently the OPP and MNR have access to the firearms license system and can check to see if I am licensed, but I really don't want to put myself in a situation where an officer asks me for my license and I'm not able to produce one. I imagine many people are in this same situation, but from what I can tell there is no official CFO policy on this situation.

Is anybody else in this situation? I really want to go shooting, but I also don't want to get into any sort of legal trouble.


EDIT: So I just got off the phone with the local OPP detachment. They said that the law requires that I be able to produce the physical card and that if I were unable to produce the physical card they would seize my firearm. Looks like I won't be able to go shooting until I receive my card. Sigh.

UPDATE: Called this afternoon and the lady I spoke with said that my card was printed yesterday and mailed out this morning. Great news! So it looks like they're running about two weeks behind schedule.

UPDATE#2: Happy day! I received my card in the mail today. Thank you for the good discussion!
 
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I've updated the OP, but I just got off the phone with the local OPP detachment. They said that the law requires me to be able to produce a physical card. If I were to be pulled over, even with a valid license, they would seize my firearm. Not sure why the CFO wasn't able to tell me that but it is what it is.
 
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First off you need to read the firearms act and the criminal code part III

The answers you seek are there. The CFC can not give legal advise, the CFC site and RCMP site are not the law.

Seizure on failure to produce authorization

117.03 (1) Despite section 117.02, a peace officer who finds

(a) a person in possession of a prohibited firearm, a restricted firearm or a non-restricted firearm who fails, on demand, to produce, for inspection by the peace officer, an authorization or a licence under which the person may lawfully possess the firearm and, in the case of a prohibited firearm or a restricted firearm, a registration certificate for it, or

(b) a person in possession of a prohibited weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited device or any prohibited ammunition who fails, on demand, to produce, for inspection by the peace officer, an authorization or a licence under which the person may lawfully possess it,

may seize the firearm, prohibited weapon, restricted weapon, prohibited device or prohibited ammunition unless its possession by the person in the circumstances in which it is found is authorized by any provision of this Part, or the person is under the direct and immediate supervision of another person who may lawfully possess it.
Click to expand...

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-27.html#docCont

Firearms act:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-11.6/FullText.html

Criminal Code:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/

Shawn
 
I wonder now how many people still think the liberal firearm license scam is still a good idea. OP, I can empathize. You staying home with your firearms locked up in the name of "public safety". Your info is available to them but they are following the letter of the law to a T.

Note the words "may seize". Not "shall seize". Your call.
 
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StoneHorse said:
I wonder now how many people still think the liberal firearm license scam is still a good idea. OP, I can empathize. You staying home with your firearms locked up in the name of "public safety". Your info is available to them but they are following the letter of the law to a T.

Note the words "may seize". Not "shall seize". Your call.
Click to expand...

Its not even about licensing itself. The OP HAS a license. He passed the background check and they issued him a license. The fact that he needs that stupid piece of plastic despite the fact that any cop can easily look up whether hes licensed or not is the problem here.

OP, If you cannot produce your card they can confiscate your guns until you can come down to the cop shop and show them the card.
 
StoneHorse said:
I wonder now how many people still think the liberal firearm license scam is still a good idea. OP, I can empathize. You staying home with your firearms locked up in the name of "public safety". Your info is available to them but they are following the letter of the law to a T.

Note the words "may seize". Not "shall seize". Your call.
Click to expand...

So whats your plan if they do seize and he cant produce a PAL in 14 days?

Shawn
 
kbont said:
If your card is expired, NO
Click to expand...

If your card is expired, then you are not allowed to use your firearms at all. But having an expired license is a different situation than having a license which shows valid in CFIS but has not been issued to the individual.

shawn said:
First off you need to read the firearms act and the criminal code part III

The answers you seek are there. The CFC can not give legal advise, the CFC site and RCMP site are not the law.

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-27.html#docCont

Firearms act:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-11.6/FullText.html

Criminal Code:
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/

Shawn
Click to expand...

This. And ACTUALLY read them. Don't just role your eyes, give us the yeah yeah yeahs bud I did my CFSC and then reply without having read them.

Further to Shawn's post, once the police seize your firearms you have 14 days to present the license to get your firearms back or they are subject to forfeiture to the crown.

If you have your card at home, and your firearms are seized, its little trouble to go home, get your PAL, and go back to the police station. You could simply invite the officer to follow you home and if its a slow day they might.

Its another thing entirely to be waiting at home for your card to show up in the mail when you have no control over when that card shows up and the spineless drones at the CFP don't care one spit what happens to you.

Suther said:
Its not even about licensing itself. The OP HAS a license. He passed the background check and they issued him a license. The fact that he needs that stupid piece of plastic despite the fact that any cop can easily look up whether hes licensed or not is the problem here.

OP, If you cannot produce your card they can confiscate your guns until you can come down to the cop shop and show them the card.
Click to expand...

In fact it is about the license. The does not HAVE a license simply because a government database says so.

Firearms Act

61 (1) A licence or registration certificate must be issued in the prescribed form — which form may be in writing or electronic — or in the prescribed manner, and include the prescribed information, including any conditions attached to it.
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The prescribed form of your license is the card with attached conditions sheet. Until this has been sent to you you have not been issued anything. You do not have access to CFIS and so you can not claim with any certainty that you have 'electronic' license. If that was good enough, than there would be absolutely no point in ever issueing anyone anything.

Nothing in law requires a police officer to consult the database before seizing a firearm or laying a charge. Nothing in law requires a police officer to even have access to that system.

At the end of the day, the onus is on the document holder to produce the document if they are defending a firearms charge where producing the document will result in acquittal. NO one in the government has any duty to help you produce one. As the saying goes, possession is 9/10ths of the law, and for all intents and purposes if you don't have one that you can hold in your hand, then you don't have one. Whether your carry it or not is entirely up to you, but the dumbest thing I can think of is to possess a firearm thinking you have a license just because some drone on the phone looked in their computer and said so. They bear absolutely zero liability for the information they provide, and we have no way of verifying anything.
 
Cameron SS said:
The prescribed form of your license is the card with attached conditions sheet. Until this has been sent to you you have not been issued anything. You do not have access to CFIS and so you can not claim with any certainty that you have 'electronic' license. If that was good enough, than there would be absolutely no point in ever issueing anyone anything.
Click to expand...

I called the CFO and asked them for my license number and information which I used to purchase a firearm online through a local retailer. I'm still wrapping my head around how "your application has been processed and your licence has been issued" doesn't mean that my license has been issued :confused:

Not fluent in legalese, but I will read through the relevant sections of the Firearms Act that you and Shawn posted so I'm more informed about what the law actually says.
 
You have to have physical possession of the card, full stop.
You should phone your MP to have them contact the CFP to rectify as someone could consider you to be in illegal possession.


If the police ever came to confiscate your firearms they should also demand the physical card as it is an offense not to surrender it. This doesn't always happen but they are supposed to take your card as well as firearms so you don't just go and buy another.

With hunting season fast approaching, anyone without a valid physical card, should be demanding that their MP or the CFP do something to alleviate the possibility of being charged with illegal possession.

...maybe this is what they want....maybe the card printer will be down for a while.....
 
Boblo Rosscobar said:
I'm still wrapping my head around how "your application has been processed and your licence has been issued" doesn't mean that my license has been issued :confused:
Click to expand...

Under the firearms act legally the physical card is your license. It does not matter legally, or otherwise, what is in the computer says, the physical PAL is the legal proof your have a firearms license and what it authorizes.

For example if for whatever reason you are charged with possessing a firearm without a PAL you producing your PAL is proof you have a PAL, not the data base saying you having one.

Onus on the accused

117.11 Where, in any proceedings for an offence under any of sections 89, 90, 91, 93, 97, 101, 104 and 105, any question arises as to whether a person is the holder of an authorization, a licence or a registration certificate, the onus is on the accused to prove that the person is the holder of the authorization, licence or registration certificate.

1995, c. 39, s. 139

Authorizations, etc., as evidence

117.12 (1) In any proceedings under this Act or any other Act of Parliament, a document purporting to be an authorization, a licence or a registration certificate is evidence of the statements contained therein.
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https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/page-29.html#docCont

Another thing to consider is that when you phone the "CFO" you are only talking to a secretary working at a call center. Do not take what they tell you as being the law or that they are legally allowed or qualified to give legal advice.

:cheers: Good on you for being willing to actually read the law. Once done, you will be better versed in firearms law than 99.9% of people in Canada and a good 80% of people on here LOL

Shawn
 
scourge18a said:
You have to have physical possession of the card, full stop.
You should phone your MP to have them contact the CFP to rectify as someone could consider you to be in illegal possession.
Click to expand...

Debating if I should contact my MP or not. I live in an area with a Liberal MP, and during the election I received a number of brochures from his office touting the (then proposed) assault weapons ban. My hope would be that he would advocate for a citizen that he represents, but lately I've had little faith in politicians to do the right thing...
 
shawn said:
Nope,

Question still stands

Despite your insinuation of it being no big deal

Shawn
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Don't be cute. You very well know the difference between "may" & "shall" and I'm sure you know the meaning of "your call". I never said it was "no big deal" or even insinuated that. The OP was given information to make a informed decision and it is entirely up to him as to his course of action, hence his call.
 
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