Ok I should know this, But what were the main improvements of the No4 over the MkIII (other than the rear sight). It just seems weird that going into ww2 the British would want to change all of there tooling to build a different rifle.
No1 mk3 vs No4 mk1
- Thread starter Rdrash
- Start date
It was cheaper, easier and faster to make. Many of the 'improvements' were geared towards simplifying the build process. They'd had trouble keeping up with lost and damaged equipment in the first war. IMO the SMLE was a bit nicer rifle.
Better sights, a bit heavier standard barrel and ease of production of the No.4 are the ones I seem to recall. Of my two I prefer to shoot the No.1 just a bit more but I have PH sights on both of mine. If I had to use the issue sights the No.4 would win out.
Lee_Enfield_Lover
Member
- Location
- Portage La Prairie MB
This site ought to give you some great pointers on the various models, how and where they developed.
http://www.allaboutenfields.co.nz/history/
http://www.allaboutenfields.co.nz/history/
Cheers,
- Pete
http://www.allaboutenfields.co.nz/history/
http://www.allaboutenfields.co.nz/history/
Cheers,
- Pete
Also, the changes had been in the works since shortly after WWI. Switching over shortly before another war wasn't part of the plan. In the history books you'll find that most of the world was largely ignorant of Germany's ambitions until a very short time before the outbreak of war. Britain's Prime Minister was calling Hitler the best thing to have ever happened to the country even a couple of years before the invasion of Poland.
"...the No.4 is easier to scope..." Battle rifles do not have scopes. snicker.
"...most of the world was largely ignorant of..." The world knew, but chose to ignore what was going on. It was called 'Appeasement'.
"...a bit heavier standard barrel..." But the rifle overall is lighter.
"...most of the world was largely ignorant of..." The world knew, but chose to ignore what was going on. It was called 'Appeasement'.
"...a bit heavier standard barrel..." But the rifle overall is lighter.
Different THREADS..... and that has nothing to do with what the poor things were wearing to church (white sling as opposed to Khaki).
During the Greeat War it was found difficult to keep up with demand for rifles, even though they had Enfield, BSA, London Small Arms, RSAF Sparkbrook AND Standard Small Arms all working overtime, PLUS buying a couple million P-14s and scads of other things that went bang. Look at the Weedon List some time; that tells you what they still had in storage in 1935 in the Navy ALONE. They were using everything from German Mausers to Remington Rolling Blocks to Winchester 92s and still couldn't get enough. In 1940, the first German bomber shot down over London was shot down by a platoon of Home Guards, using Martinis.
The Number 4 was designed to be an improvement on the SMLE (heavier barrel, better sights), just as good ergonomically (pretty hard to improve on 'perfect') AND for dispersed production. They were thinking very seriously about the danger from bombing (written up any number of times in books and newspapers) and, in the end, they were quite right: BSA was bombed, Parker-Hale was bombed, Enfield was bombed, Coventry Ordnance Works (makers of the 'COW Gun') was obliterated.
Development rifls, Trials rifles all were made at Enfield, right up to the 1930 Trials rifles. But the 1931 series, the first rifles to be marked as RIFLE NUMBER 4, introduced a very important difference. Early rifles all used Enfield threads, for which tooling was very limited and there was only a single source: the Toolroom at Enfield. Enfield-threaded screws were distinguished by a ROUNDED top.
Production of the Number 4 Rifle used BA threads (British Association: a 47-1/2-degree rounded thread on a Metric standard) for which the tooling already could be found in literally thousands of small shops and factories. Screws on th Number 4 have a FLAT top to distinguish them from the round-topped screws of the Number 1 Rifle, the SMLE.
Result: Number 4 parts could be contract-made almost ANYWHERE, brought to a central location and made into rifles..... and they would WORK. BSA used this system most effectively after a portion of their plant was bombed, and they were working with the old Enfield threads. If a plant had been bombed which was using the BA thread, all that would have been necessary would have been to increase production at a couple of small plants using the BA thread.
Effectively, they had BOMB-PROOFED their Rifle production. Germany, even with 200 million people under its control, simply could not build enough bombs to stop them ALL.
And THAT is why your Number 1 screws do not fit your Number 4.
During the Greeat War it was found difficult to keep up with demand for rifles, even though they had Enfield, BSA, London Small Arms, RSAF Sparkbrook AND Standard Small Arms all working overtime, PLUS buying a couple million P-14s and scads of other things that went bang. Look at the Weedon List some time; that tells you what they still had in storage in 1935 in the Navy ALONE. They were using everything from German Mausers to Remington Rolling Blocks to Winchester 92s and still couldn't get enough. In 1940, the first German bomber shot down over London was shot down by a platoon of Home Guards, using Martinis.
The Number 4 was designed to be an improvement on the SMLE (heavier barrel, better sights), just as good ergonomically (pretty hard to improve on 'perfect') AND for dispersed production. They were thinking very seriously about the danger from bombing (written up any number of times in books and newspapers) and, in the end, they were quite right: BSA was bombed, Parker-Hale was bombed, Enfield was bombed, Coventry Ordnance Works (makers of the 'COW Gun') was obliterated.
Development rifls, Trials rifles all were made at Enfield, right up to the 1930 Trials rifles. But the 1931 series, the first rifles to be marked as RIFLE NUMBER 4, introduced a very important difference. Early rifles all used Enfield threads, for which tooling was very limited and there was only a single source: the Toolroom at Enfield. Enfield-threaded screws were distinguished by a ROUNDED top.
Production of the Number 4 Rifle used BA threads (British Association: a 47-1/2-degree rounded thread on a Metric standard) for which the tooling already could be found in literally thousands of small shops and factories. Screws on th Number 4 have a FLAT top to distinguish them from the round-topped screws of the Number 1 Rifle, the SMLE.
Result: Number 4 parts could be contract-made almost ANYWHERE, brought to a central location and made into rifles..... and they would WORK. BSA used this system most effectively after a portion of their plant was bombed, and they were working with the old Enfield threads. If a plant had been bombed which was using the BA thread, all that would have been necessary would have been to increase production at a couple of small plants using the BA thread.
Effectively, they had BOMB-PROOFED their Rifle production. Germany, even with 200 million people under its control, simply could not build enough bombs to stop them ALL.
And THAT is why your Number 1 screws do not fit your Number 4.
Never really thought about it but a lot of P14 features made it onto the No.4. Rear sight is similar, front sight ears mounted directly to barrel, etc... I guess it's only natural since the 14 was supposed to replace the SMLE before that war got in the way and the British remembered that 10 bloody fast shots were a good thing.
Yep, sergeant instructor Snoxhall couldn't have done the offhand hits he made in the time claimed if he had been using a P14
aspenkarius
Member
- Location
- West central alberta.
Addley precision has a good mount. It does require one drill and tap unfortunately but its a do it your self kit that doesn't require a smith. No good for matching number rifles but if you have a chopped sporter they are nice.
The No.4 is not as finicky accuracy wise with the heavier barrel and lacking the pressure points of a No.1 Mk.3 on the barrel. Plus the No. 4 had much better battle sights than the No. 1. Generally speaking a better combat rifle than the No.1 Mk.3.
The one I was referring to mounted to the charger slot and had a band that slipped around the barrel where it meets the receiver. It came highly recommended by some other members, although it was a little pricey. Wish I could remember the name...
That's the one! Once again the wealth of knowledge stored between your ears amazes me! Come to think of it, the mounts might have been involved in a conversation with you in the first place....guess I need to start on some brain push ups.....
