Non-toxic primers – Can you get them? Do you care?

flange said:
My father in law shoots the win clean ammo in 9mm. I reload he does not. When he brought me his brass i actually thought he had tumbled it, remarkably clean. Put some over the chronograph SD numbers in the 10-13 range over three 10 shot strings. Has any one tried these yet ?

https://ww w.westernmetal.ca/shooting/heavy-metal-free-small-pistol-primers-fiocchi-1500-box-fio-445smzp
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Wow! Good spotting. I'm going to buy some of these and try them out. The Fiocchi ones have a good reputation in the States where they are readily available at good prices.

I'll post the results of testing here.

BTW the correst URL is https://www.westernmetal.ca/shooting/heavy-metal-free-small-pistol-primers-fiocchi-1500-box-fio-445smzp
 
lone-wolf said:
Hot linking to dealers who paid the forum owner for the privilege is ok. Western Metal is g2g
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Sorry about the hot linking thing. Duly noted. I don't know what G2G is.

FYI here is an article about non-toxic ammo suited for indoor range use. There is a fairly good section in this about the risks and effects of lead poisoning from exposure to conventional primers in an indoor range without proper (very expensive) ventilation. This isn't just a theoretically thing. Two range officers are off sick with the effects of lead poisoning at a range near here and other club members have tested high for lead levels in their blood etc.

For those putdown artists who will jump at the chance to suggest that I'm a wuss to bring this up - nope I don't have any big issues with lead. In fact, I know I swallowed my fair share of lead pellets as a kid (back when it was routine to carry a spare supply of .177 pellets in your mouth while hunting with a single shot air gun).

On the other hand, I don't shoot lead bullets much indoors or out 'cause I don't like the face full of blue stinky smoke you get every time you touch off a round. As for lead free primers, if they shoot as well as the regular ones and cost about the same I'd buy them exclusively - for use indoors and out. Once you see how much cleaner they keep you gun and brass you'd get that. The health advantages are just an extra bonus.
 
I've talked with my buddy Wolf at Wolf Bullets in Kingston. He does runs of non-lead primered ammo when special ordered.

He tells me it is a very big PITA. The humidity and temperature has to be very controlled during the loading process.
They're very sensitive to being ruined. Based on his explanation of the techniques he uses to load them, I doubt any home re-loader would want to take on the challenge and if they did, would likely have some disappointments in the process.
 
If you could source non-toxic primers, how would you convince your range that they are "safe" and in fact that's what you're using?

Better to find another range.
 
"The second that the Wolf NT cartridge is fired, it looks like any other crappy, fired 9mm case. Dirty inside - with apparent normal primer residue - and that faint "nt" scratched on the surface of the primer itself has completely disappeared. So ... if the RO comes up and picks-up these cases, there is NOTHING to support your story that it is non-toxic; except for what remains in the box and maybe in your magazine (and your honest face - if applicable).

As for why these cases end up just as dirty as any other fired case, inside, I can think of two possibilities. The first is pretty innocent. Specifically, that Wolf is obtaining once-fired cases that already have lead primer residue in them (from the first firing) and they make no effort to clean this out. That could have the effect that, when genuine non-toxic primers are seated in a case and it is then loaded and fired, the original residues of lead compounds, etc. remain in the fired, Wolf NT ammo cases.

The second possibility is that Wolf NT ammo doesn't actually use lead-free primers - and that a scam is involved (somewhere in the supply chain); where someone just arranges to have NT scratched on normal toxic primers - and no one has figured that out yet. Please note that I don't have a suspicious mind but, on the other hand, there are many known scams involving the supplies of shooting products."

The blue/black/gray residue you refer to is probably the powder residue. I use their reloaded ammo a lot and have found the same residue in the cases. I have used AE non toxic and regular 9mm ammo and found no difference in the residue inside the cases.
Hayday: I hope you can find a reliable source of non-toxic primers and update this thread. Also G2G means good to go
 
Andy said:
If you could source non-toxic primers, how would you convince your range that they are "safe" and in fact that's what you're using?

Better to find another range.
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I do belong to another range and have multiple options for shooting outdoors where there are no issues about he need to shoot no-toxic ammo. On the other hand it gets damn cold shooting outdoors in the winter and the cases from your semi auto pistol make those little melt holes in the snow, etc. On those days (and after dark) the thought of being able to shoot inside seems appealing.

AS NOTED i'd prefer to shoot non-toxic inside and out anyway of the primers were easy to get and affordable and worked well - because these things REALLY seem to keep your brass and gun weirdly clean - at least based on my experience shooting S&B nontox - but not the supposed non toxic stuff from Wolf (see above). The potential health benefits are just "icing on the cake".

Non-toxic primers are normally coloured differently so that you and the RO know that these aren't normal primers. The ones in the S&B cases are red and the Fiocchi ones (at Western Metal, etc.) are green.

Too bad that the ones that Wolf loads are just plain silver with a tiny, faint NT scratched into them - which disappears the second that the round is fired. Their cases are common range-found type brass too (whereas S&B cases and well as Winclean cases etc say non-toxic on the brass TOO). You need to have an honest face and a trusting RO if you shoot the Wolf stuff because the fired cases look like any other crappy fired 9mm hull.

I think that the fired Wolf cases would also test positive for lead too - if only because of lead salt residue left over from the first firing (and maybe for other reasons, as noted above). You can buy a home lead testing kit (How to video here) for 21 bucks at Home hardware (Item #1611-001 Model #LI032604) and test your fired Wolf cases, or around your reloading bench, your kid's room or wherever.
 
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flange said:
My father in law shoots the win clean ammo in 9mm. I reload he does not. When he brought me his brass i actually thought he had tumbled it, remarkably clean. Put some over the chronograph SD numbers in the 10-13 range over three 10 shot strings. Has any one tried these yet ?

https://ww w.westernmetal.ca/shooting/heavy-metal-free-small-pistol-primers-fiocchi-1500-box-fio-445smzp
Click to expand...

I've got some of these lead free/ non-toxic primers on order. I'll be shooting identical loads (in terms of powders and bullets) in a stainless steel 9x19 gun - so that the resulting crud will be easy to see and evaluate. The only differences will be load 1, conventional (uber common) Winchester non-corrosive lead styphnate based small pistol primers, load 2 corrosive primers and load 3 Fiocchi non-toxic lead free primers - all shot using unfired brass.

Photos will be supplied so that you can see the results for yourselves. Who's be interested in seeing wolf supposedly lead free/ non-toxic ammo included in this comparison (load 4).

Lets see how much crud/ gunshot residue each makes. Report to follow.
 
Use a clean burning powder like VV n320 to make sure that the "crud" you're expecting is influenced by the primer. Seriously doubt that there will be any noticeable difference. Good luck with your obsession.
 
redruns said:
Use a clean burning powder like VV n320 to make sure that the "crud" you're expecting is influenced by the primer. Seriously doubt that there will be any noticeable difference. Good luck with your obsession.
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Actual Results from firing Fiocchi Non-toxic primers:

Our poster friend above will be surprised. There were noticeable differences.

Can you guess which round of 7.62x25 had the non-toxic primer?

s first.jpg


If you thought maybe the middle one (third from the left), then you are good at this stuff.

No special powder was used, just the normal load of Titegroup for this cartridge, in all cases.

Any problems? I only made and shot of one round with the Fiocchi non-toxic primers - so I can't tell you about grouping, or anything like that. I can say that it fired with the same apparent pressures as the others and the fired primer looked normal (but green because they are coloured that way).

Any other issues? Yup. They come in a brick of 1,500 (not 1,000). There are 10 boxes of 150 primers in there. They dump fine into my RCBS flip tray. However, if you pick them up with a Dillon pick-up tube remember that tube only holds 100 or so primers. In that case, you are best off dumping half a box of primers at a time (say, 75).

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How can actual non-toxic primers be so much cleaner than the normal ones (I used Winchester SPs in the above test)? I think it is because the normal - toxic/ lead styphnate- based (LINK) ones react with the propellant to make lots and lots of a cruddy compound (in combination). By contrast, the non-toxic primers plus propellant do no react to make these great volumes of lead containing crud compounds.

That why crime labs are able to find lots of "gun shot reside" - from the conventional primer(s) on the hands and clothes of the shooter, plus the target, the surrounding areas etc. - all from one little itsy bitsy primer. As a matter, of fact crime lab guys probably really like the fact that conventional primers are really dirty and produce lots of easy-to-detect lead compounds, on firing.

As for me I'm not a clean freak but I don't like gun crud. In my experience in action shooting, I have seen gun crud cause stoppages in less than 100 rounds. I will probably switch to non-toxic primers just for that reason. Any health benefits are just a bonus in my books.
 
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Thanks for the update. Any chance of some chronograph data in the near future ? Would be interested to see if there is any velocity differences between the regular vs nontoxic.
 
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