Nontoxic ammo.

[Lawrence D]

We all know that nontoxic ammo leads me to believe that it is not as effective as lead. I read many, many reports about steel, heavy shot, copper plated lead and, bismuth. Everything is brilliant on paper but reality uncovers a totally different picture. What is your opinion and what do you find more effective and what choke size are you using on a 12ga.

I'm in Ontario and our hunting regulations allow the use of lead on woodcock and non toxic for dove. I can't wrap my mind around this. Going a step further to expose the absurdity of "the birds are being poisoned" propaganda - what happens when birds eat steel, bismuth or copper? North America is the only place where we have to use non toxic shells. The bird population in other places where hunting with lead is normal practice, haven't got hit with poisoning. I think that this issue is only about money. I haven't seen intact birds floating and poisoned but I had seen many crippled with steel and getting away.

 

[Power Pill]

I don't think North America is the only place that requires non-toxic. I'm pretty sure they require it in the UK as well.

 

[FLHTCUI]

Lead was mandated for Migratory Bird back around 1991/92?
I could be off by a year or so.
Rather than sitting around debating it get out there and make your shot count.
Use decoys to lure them in closer and ensure your shot is good to go.
The performance of non toxic shot (steel, bizmuth and heavy steel also known as tungsten ) has come a long way since the days of lead.
I dont see the Feds repealing the use of Lead shot for use any time soon.
In fact I see it creeping forward into Big Game Hunting in the future and I hope it is the far distant future.
Rob

 

[Lawrence D]

It's been rejected in the UK. None the less its benefits are not proved.

Now that we're in this mess what are hunters working with that makes shot effective - open chokes or restrictive? Bismuth or higher velocity steel. I was enraged yesterday - had pigeons in at 25 paces (no more) and only feathers drop. That's with Kent BB 28inch full choke (for steel) and no bird. An other hunter beside me with a 24 inch improved choke using BB Winchester and same frustrating results. Can't figure out what's going on and what am I doing wrong.

 

[canvasback]

There is no evidence that lead is a problem that required the solution of non-tox. None. In fact, it's just another measure to make hunting less attractive. Make old guns obsolete, make ammo less effective and more expensive. Just another long term move by the antis.

 

[Mumbles Marble Mouth]

I'm thinking about getting my Brno SxS bored out to an IM and M as right now its a M and F. If they perhaps ban lead shot even for upland and sporting purposes, id only have one barrel I could use. I keep putting it off and may cross that bridge only if it actually happens.

 

[Westward1]

It's been rejected in the UK. None the less its benefits are not proved.

Now that we're in this mess what are hunters working with that makes shot effective - open chokes or restrictive? Bismuth or higher velocity steel. I was enraged yesterday - had pigeons in at 25 paces (no more) and only feathers drop. That's with Kent BB 28inch full choke (for steel) and no bird. An other hunter beside me with a 24 inch improved choke using BB Winchester and same frustrating results. Can't figure out what's going on and what am I doing wrong.

BB’s for pigeons. Use #6 steel for them and they will not be flying away at 25 yards.

 

[3macs1]

It's been rejected in the UK. None the less its benefits are not proved.

Now that we're in this mess what are hunters working with that makes shot effective - open chokes or restrictive? Bismuth or higher velocity steel. I was enraged yesterday - had pigeons in at 25 paces (no more) and only feathers drop. That's with Kent BB 28inch full choke (for steel) and no bird. An other hunter beside me with a 24 inch improved choke using BB Winchester and same frustrating results. Can't figure out what's going on and what am I doing wrong.

Pretty simple. Back when steel shot first came out you could blame the loads, not today. Modern high speed steel shot will kill that is if you patterned your gun and fitted the choke tube that gives you the required pattern and second if you have the ability to wing shoot
Asking what others are using is of no value you have to see how and where your combination is hitting. BB with a 24" and IC choke I would bet on paper there is holes in the pattern I could toss a cat through. Also you don't need BB for pigeons 6 or 7 1/2 would work much better
Cheers

 

[FLHTCUI]

BB’s for pigeons. Use #6 steel for them and they will not be flying away at 25 yards.

I was thinking the very same thing....
I have shot at Pigeon flying at MachII in the farmyard with Federal Number 4 and they jusy folded their wings and when the lead flew past they too kept going.
They are tough birds but not invincible, they will fall with a well placed shot with a good choke like a Modified and a heavy load of lead or steel. !!

Change out your choke and choice of ammo and give that gun a swing and see how you improve...try a duck load and see how that works for you.
Also you didnt mention brand of ammo, care to elaborate on the choice ?
Rob

 

[stubblejumper]

It's been rejected in the UK. None the less its benefits are not proved.

Now that we're in this mess what are hunters working with that makes shot effective - open chokes or restrictive? Bismuth or higher velocity steel. I was enraged yesterday - had pigeons in at 25 paces (no more) and only feathers drop. That's with Kent BB 28inch full choke (for steel) and no bird. An other hunter beside me with a 24 inch improved choke using BB Winchester and same frustrating results. Can't figure out what's going on and what am I doing wrong.

I shoot pigeons with a 28 gauge and #6 lead shot and have no issues at closer ranges. I have killed them out to over 50 yards with #7-1/2 lead out of a 16 gauge. Most people don't lead enough and the result is a few tail feathers.

 

[Rod]

there is no evidence that lead is a problem that required the solution of non-tox. None. In fact, it's just another measure to make hunting less attractive. Make old guns obsolete, make ammo less effective and more expensive. Just another long term move by the antis.

. . . X2

 

[g-manz35]

I think some people have to learn how to shoot and get over it.
Ammo is expensive?? I used to buy 2 3/4" lead shells for $10/box. Now I buy steel 3" for $14/box 20 years later meanwhile wages in my trade have more than doubled
Old guns are obsolete?? I used the same 1956 Wingmaster to hunt geese up until 3 years ago. Get your choke opened up to LM and fill your boots. It cost me $50
Hunting is less attractive?? I assume this means its more difficult. We have full bodied decoys and coffin blinds and my gun shoots 3 shells in less than a second. I feel like I'm cheating. Did you ever dig pits? That was less attractive!!

Now I'm no scientist. but When I was a kid turkey vultures and eagles were extremely rare. Now they seem plentiful. May be it's just coincidence. At any rate. Lead is toxic and steel is not.

To answer your question. I use IC Choke with steel and use shot 3 sizes bigger than you would with lead. It is not nearly as effective as lead, but we kill lots of big Canadas if we are shooting well. I think most people over choke. If you are shooting at 25 paces I would use a cyl with #5 personally. BB with full choke is way to tight. You were probably missing and catching them with a couple odd pellets from a blown pattern. A patterning board would expose this pretty quick.

BTW. In reference to the OP. Copper plated lead is not considered NO-toxic and it is super effective. It was considered the Premium ammo back in the day. Wow! Just Wow!

 

[3macs1]

I think some people have to learn how to shoot and get over it.
Ammo is expensive?? I used to buy 2 3/4" lead shells for $10/box. Now I buy steel 3" for $14/box 20 years later meanwhile wages in my trade have more than doubled
Old guns are obsolete?? I used the same 1956 Wingmaster to hunt geese up until 3 years ago. Get your choke opened up to LM and fill your boots. It cost me $50
Hunting is less attractive?? I assume this means its more difficult. We have full bodied decoys and coffin blinds and my gun shoots 3 shells in less than a second. I feel like I'm cheating. Did you ever dig pits? That was less attractive!!

Now I'm no scientist. but When I was a kid turkey vultures and eagles were extremely rare. Now they seem plentiful. May be it's just coincidence. At any rate. Lead is toxic and steel is not.

To answer your question. I use IC Choke with steel and use shot 3 sizes bigger than you would with lead. It is not nearly as effective as lead, but we kill lots of big Canadas if we are shooting well. I think most people over choke. If you are shooting at 25 paces I would use a cyl with #5 personally. BB with full choke is way to tight. You were probably missing and catching them with a couple odd pellets from a blown pattern. A patterning board would expose this pretty quick.

BTW. In reference to the OP. Copper plated lead is not considered NO-toxic and it is super effective. It was considered the Premium ammo back in the day. Wow! Just Wow!

Eagles were rare because of DDT when I was a kid not from lead killing them. Yes it takes out a few but not even close to what those green windmills are doing here now or power lines
All that said we have never had as many eagles. In fact too many experts are saying
Plus eagles here normally get their lead from gut piles and bullets not lead from shotshells in birds
Cheers

 

[g-manz35]

Eagles were rare because of DDT when I was a kid not from lead killing them. Yes it takes out a few but not even close to what those green windmills are doing here now or power lines
All that said we have never had as many eagles. In fact too many experts are saying
Plus eagles here normally get their lead from gut piles and bullets not lead from shotshells in birds
Cheers

Yes. Many articles on the subject. I see that Dr. Helene Van Doninck has been giving you guys a talking to about lead bullets. I understand there was a push five or so years ago to get a ban on all hunting ammo. Eagles do eat a lot of wounded birds. Maybe.... the Eagles are more plentiful because there are so many more wounded geese and ducks to eat due to steel shot. You never know??!!

 

[m12man]

As far as I am concerned the same inexperienced with a shotgun skybusters with lead are still out in the field with non-toxic loads, end of story!

 

[3macs1]

Yes. Many articles on the subject. I see that Dr. Helene Van Doninck has been giving you guys a talking to about lead bullets. I understand there was a push five or so years ago to get a ban on all hunting ammo. Eagles do eat a lot of wounded birds. Maybe.... the Eagles are more plentiful because there are so many more wounded geese and ducks to eat due to steel shot. You never know??!!

I will not go there with the old doc. Lets just say she is trying to ban lead bullets period right across this country including out your way
Problem is she has no proven science that the eagles she gets here are getting their lead from hunters bullets
They eat more fish than anything and lead has not been banned for fishermen or the 1000's of tons still being used in avg gas in our many prop planes
I attended one of her sessions and she was on a roll about hunters and their gut piles. I asked how many eagles does she get in a year , no answer but stated there was two loons currently being treated. Been a while since I seen a loon eating a gut pile I said
All I know is this year I had four nesting pairs within 5 miles of my house and we feed them during the winter and it is nothing on those sundays to have 40 waiting for a bite
They are not a hurting unit that is for sure here. Not to mention many that hit are what we call dump eagles and are exposed to god only knows what there
Cheers

 

[Grock-co]

So lead is not poisonous sounds like a similar health struggle from a few years back, how long did it take for second hand smoke to get recognized as a huge health problem. Same battle here, and it all comes down to economics nobody wants to spend the money to change but will have no problems to continue to pollute the forests, rives, streams and lakes.

 

[3macs1]

So lead is not poisonous sounds like a similar health struggle from a few years back, how long did it take for second hand smoke to get recognized as a huge health problem. Same battle here, and it all comes down to economics nobody wants to spend the money to change but will have no problems to continue to pollute the forests, rives, streams and lakes.

Lead is just one of the many poisons we are confronted with daily and eliminating it from bullets is like pissing in the ocean when it is still being used in so many much larger applications and quantities. How many people do you know died from lead poisoning. Name one if you can. It is nothing like second hand smoke
Like to see what it costs a shooter to run his usual 5000 or 10000 rounds a year in 2017 with what is currently available for an alternative to lead
Ban lead bullets at this stage and be prepared to take a lot of shooters out of our numbers. Ever think of that. OK for the one box a year guys to say let's switch not so much for the guys that are all in and keep the sport alive
Like my old man said back in the 70's don't worry about the anti's it will be the stupidity of our own that kills the shooting sports
Give us an affordable alternative with equal performance and a transition plan and it won't be an issue but we are not there in 2017 not even close
Cheers

 

[canvasback]

So lead is not poisonous sounds like a similar health struggle from a few years back, how long did it take for second hand smoke to get recognized as a huge health problem. Same battle here, and it all comes down to economics nobody wants to spend the money to change but will have no problems to continue to pollute the forests, rives, streams and lakes.

Nothing like conjecture and emotion ruling the day.

 

[g-manz35]

I will not go there with the old doc. Lets just say she is trying to ban lead bullets period right across this country including out your way
Problem is she has no proven science that the eagles she gets here are getting their lead from hunters bullets
They eat more fish than anything and lead has not been banned for fishermen or the 1000's of tons still being used in avg gas in our many prop planes
I attended one of her sessions and she was on a roll about hunters and their gut piles. I asked how many eagles does she get in a year , no answer but stated there was two loons currently being treated. Been a while since I seen a loon eating a gut pile I said
All I know is this year I had four nesting pairs within 5 miles of my house and we feed them during the winter and it is nothing on those sundays to have 40 waiting for a bite
They are not a hurting unit that is for sure here. Not to mention many that hit are what we call dump eagles and are exposed to god only knows what there
Cheers

I get the feeling she is an environmentalist who's science might be slightly screwed, but there is other research that also shows the advers effects of lead to scavengers and even humans. I'm not jumping on the band wagon whole heartedly, but I have no problem using steel and monolithic bullets to harvest game that my young children are going to eat. I do realize that steel shot is not as effective as lead, but if this is the deal breaker when deciding whether or not you will hunt then you are not much of a hunter. To be honest I often use 2 3/4" shells when hunting waterfowl and strangely enough I still kill birds.