you are shooting a remington 700 say no more
Noob Question, how to shoot better than 3"?
- Thread starter TargetNorth
- Start date
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Check the rifle's action screws, scope mount screws, and check the scope adjustments to ensure it is tracking. Shoot shorter shot strings, and give your barrel time to cool between strings. If you are shooting with a bipod from a hard surface, try putting a soft material, like a pair of gloves under the bipod's feet. I've found that shooting a bipod from a hard surface is like resting the forearm on a hard surface, the groups open up. Also lean into the bipod which puts tension on the legs, and make them less springy.
blasted_saber
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- A blue part of Ontario
What the heck does that mean? 700s should be far more accurate then 3in/100m
TargetNorth
Regular
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Wow lots of info! Thanks guys, I have lots to try now. What a great resource... I'll pick up some factory ammo and get a friend to shoot.
Now, now... nothing wrong with a Rem .700.
I spent the a good part of last summer and fall playing with a Remington 700, in 223 (by the way, thanks for that Marc). It shoots very well and the groupings were always very tight.
In addition, there are lots of dead ground hogs and coyotes to prove my point.
Oh yes, a good quality and well mounted scope helps a great deal.
Regards
Robert
The rifle has produced a one inch group already, so it isn't the rifle per se. Your day of three inch groups was a bit cold. It is possible that all three of those loads that day, having one powder in common, don't like the cold. It may be that you aren't so consistent in the cold. Or you just weren't having a good day, regardless of conditions. Or your rifle likes the SP bullet better than the BTSP.
You have too many variables and not enough data yet to come to a conclusion. Go back to the range and shoot it some more. Make sure no screws have worked loose on the rifle and the scope mounts.
They should, but every manufacturer has there bad ones, and it is a fair jibe at Remington, as they seem to be putting out more bad ones in the past few years than their long-deserved reputation should allow.
However, it's not relevant in this case, since the OP's rifle has already produced a one inch group for him.
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
There are a lot of things it *could* be, and you've gotten lots of good ideas so far of things to check. There are a large number of possibilities, and most of them have been listed.
As you say, by having another shooter try your rifle, that's a sure-fire way of ruling *you* out of the list of culprits. If another known-good shooter also gets similarly big groups, then you need to go back to the list of things to try.
If none of your screws are loose, and you have floated the barrel (make sure that it is still floating even when in a shooting position, i.e. with weight applied to the forend), there are two more things I would suggest.
One is to make sure that your front action screw is not just-barely-touching your bolt lug. Also, make sure that you r rear action screw isn't bottomed out (I can't recall if a Rem 700 rear screw is a through-hole, in which case this isn't an issue, or if it is a blind hole, in which case bottoming out is possible).
The very next thing I would suggest is to not trust your scope (or any scope), unless it has recently demonstrated that if can fire good groups (either on your rifle or on another). Either put a known-good scope onto your rifle, or put your scope onto a known-good rifle, to check this.
One thing that will make your groups larger is that you shot 10-shot groups. Three shot groups tend to be much smaller - as an old shooter once told me, "nobody ever made a group smaller by firing another shot at it" ;-) Also, you've told us the size of all the groups you've fired. Some so-called stories of "it shoots half-inch" turn out to be one three shot group happened to be half an inch, the rest that day were larger.
Now while it is possible that 10-shots into 3" at 100m is the simply the best that your rifle can be expected to do (such is the "factory barrel/rifle lottery"), more likely than not you ought to be able to do better than that, so it is worth trying.
One final thing that might be worth trying. You mentioned used 38-39 grains of H4831 in a .243 behind a 100 grain bullet. According to Hodgdon's online data, that is on the min/start-load side of things (so it is good and correct that you started there). As long as your rifle isn't showing pressure signs, work your way up to the max listed load (say in 0.5 grain increments). You may well find that hotter, full-power ammo will shoot better for you.
As you say, by having another shooter try your rifle, that's a sure-fire way of ruling *you* out of the list of culprits. If another known-good shooter also gets similarly big groups, then you need to go back to the list of things to try.
If none of your screws are loose, and you have floated the barrel (make sure that it is still floating even when in a shooting position, i.e. with weight applied to the forend), there are two more things I would suggest.
One is to make sure that your front action screw is not just-barely-touching your bolt lug. Also, make sure that you r rear action screw isn't bottomed out (I can't recall if a Rem 700 rear screw is a through-hole, in which case this isn't an issue, or if it is a blind hole, in which case bottoming out is possible).
The very next thing I would suggest is to not trust your scope (or any scope), unless it has recently demonstrated that if can fire good groups (either on your rifle or on another). Either put a known-good scope onto your rifle, or put your scope onto a known-good rifle, to check this.
One thing that will make your groups larger is that you shot 10-shot groups. Three shot groups tend to be much smaller - as an old shooter once told me, "nobody ever made a group smaller by firing another shot at it" ;-) Also, you've told us the size of all the groups you've fired. Some so-called stories of "it shoots half-inch" turn out to be one three shot group happened to be half an inch, the rest that day were larger.
Now while it is possible that 10-shots into 3" at 100m is the simply the best that your rifle can be expected to do (such is the "factory barrel/rifle lottery"), more likely than not you ought to be able to do better than that, so it is worth trying.
One final thing that might be worth trying. You mentioned used 38-39 grains of H4831 in a .243 behind a 100 grain bullet. According to Hodgdon's online data, that is on the min/start-load side of things (so it is good and correct that you started there). As long as your rifle isn't showing pressure signs, work your way up to the max listed load (say in 0.5 grain increments). You may well find that hotter, full-power ammo will shoot better for you.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Your 4831 load is WAAAYYY too low.
If you got good success with 40gr of 4350, you will need MORE powder if you use 4831. Keep working up until you reach 44gr assuming there are no pressure signs.
Odds are you will get much better performance once you pass 40gr of 4831.
My SWAG would be around 42gr of 4831 to equal the type of groups you were getting with 40gr of 4350.
Good luck...
Jerry
I definitely believe in proper bedding and free floating the barrel. These plastic stocks will bounce and if the barrel is touching, you will get lousy performance especially with a bipod.
If you got good success with 40gr of 4350, you will need MORE powder if you use 4831. Keep working up until you reach 44gr assuming there are no pressure signs.
Odds are you will get much better performance once you pass 40gr of 4831.
My SWAG would be around 42gr of 4831 to equal the type of groups you were getting with 40gr of 4350.
Good luck...
Jerry
I definitely believe in proper bedding and free floating the barrel. These plastic stocks will bounce and if the barrel is touching, you will get lousy performance especially with a bipod.
Others have given some good advice already. I would just chime in by saying that there are basically four components to assess:
(a)The shooter;
(b)The scope;
(c)The ammo; and
(d)The rifle
I would firstly ask someone else to shoot the rifle before doing anything else just to make sure that on the previous occassion you were not just having a really bad day. If the replacement shooter also records poor groups then make sure the scope didn't work loose in some way ( check tightness of all mounting hardware etc ) and re-boresight if necessary. Purchase some factory ammo to establish a baseline and if things are still bad follow the advice previously given regarding the rifle. I don't own one of these models but I'm thinking that 1.0 - 1.5 MOA should be doable and repeatable.
Personally I suspect the ammo and I hope you have good luck in resolving the problem.
(a)The shooter;
(b)The scope;
(c)The ammo; and
(d)The rifle
I would firstly ask someone else to shoot the rifle before doing anything else just to make sure that on the previous occassion you were not just having a really bad day. If the replacement shooter also records poor groups then make sure the scope didn't work loose in some way ( check tightness of all mounting hardware etc ) and re-boresight if necessary. Purchase some factory ammo to establish a baseline and if things are still bad follow the advice previously given regarding the rifle. I don't own one of these models but I'm thinking that 1.0 - 1.5 MOA should be doable and repeatable.
Personally I suspect the ammo and I hope you have good luck in resolving the problem.
TargetNorth
Regular
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Hi Everyone
Thanks for the amazing advice, I've finally had a chance to get out to the range again today. Since the last time: I cleaned the oil that was between the action and the stock; I took the bipod off and shot off a backpack with my hand stabilizing the rear (forgot my bags! D'oh); tightened all screws (they all felt tight); shot 3 shot groups instead of 10; let the barrel cool until it was cold to the touch between each shot.
Rem 700 BDL (sporter barrel, detachable mag)
.243 Win, 9-1/8" twist
Falcon Menace 4.5-14x scope
100gr Hornady BTSP
Various Powder charges as listed.
Groups were all shot at 50m... (snow was deep, wind was blowing and I didn't feel like running too far)
-13 Celcius
1) .929" 40gr IMR4831
2) .805 40.5gr IMR4831
3)1.742 41gr IMR4831
4) 1.036 41.5gr IMR4831
5) .666 42gr IMR4831
6) .602 42.5gr IMR4831
So... best groups would be 1.204 at 100m. I was very happy with the result. Now to find tune the load a bit and see if I can get it under 1".
Another question: Would you guys say shooting at 50m and doubling the group size is as accurate a representation of the accuracy of a load as shooting at 100m?
Thanks for all the help.
Thanks for the amazing advice, I've finally had a chance to get out to the range again today. Since the last time: I cleaned the oil that was between the action and the stock; I took the bipod off and shot off a backpack with my hand stabilizing the rear (forgot my bags! D'oh); tightened all screws (they all felt tight); shot 3 shot groups instead of 10; let the barrel cool until it was cold to the touch between each shot.
Rem 700 BDL (sporter barrel, detachable mag)
.243 Win, 9-1/8" twist
Falcon Menace 4.5-14x scope
100gr Hornady BTSP
Various Powder charges as listed.
Groups were all shot at 50m... (snow was deep, wind was blowing and I didn't feel like running too far)
-13 Celcius
1) .929" 40gr IMR4831
2) .805 40.5gr IMR4831
3)1.742 41gr IMR4831
4) 1.036 41.5gr IMR4831
5) .666 42gr IMR4831
6) .602 42.5gr IMR4831
So... best groups would be 1.204 at 100m. I was very happy with the result. Now to find tune the load a bit and see if I can get it under 1".
Another question: Would you guys say shooting at 50m and doubling the group size is as accurate a representation of the accuracy of a load as shooting at 100m?
Thanks for all the help.
Then this probably wasn't good day to see how your rifle groups. If you knew your rifle grouped and wanted to see how good you were at doping wind, then this would have been a perfect day to go out.
Pick (or wait for) a decent weather calm day to test the grouping capabilities.
Doubling your 50m group and calling it a 1.20" 100m group is just not accurate. It's like someone saying their 1/4" group at 100 would be a 2.5" group at 1000....it just doesn't work that way.
Wait for another day and shoot at the distance you want rather than the distance you settle on.
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Basically yes (even though there are potentially a few "yes, but"s).
Next time you go out, and remember your rear bag, you'll be much better set up to get good groups. It is *hard* to fire a rifle well without a rear bag (I know I sure can't shoot sub-MOA without a rear bag)
Next time you shoot, set up your rifle on your rest and bags and aim it at your target, without you touching or holding it. Then look through the scope and make sure you have dialed out the parallax - move your eye up and down, across the limits of the image, and see if the crosshair moves relative to the target. Adjust the parallax (side knob or front lens adjustment) until there is zero relative motion (parallax).
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Shooting in a gusty wind is not the optimum condition for getting tight groups. If your 50 yard groups have little vertical spread, but significant horizontal spread, the wind was getting you. Not only will it push the bullet over, it could make holding on target much more difficult, particularly if it is shaking the bench. Try again on a calm day.
I believe that if you want to see how well a load groups at a specific range, you need to shoot it at that specific range. I prefer to see the accuracy potential of a load checked at 300 yards, but that is not always practical or even necessary, depending on what the rifle will be used for. If a load is to be used for a long range application, if it shoots at 300, it is worth checking again at 500, but if it doesn't shoot at 300 it won't shoot at 500. Whereas a load that shoots ho-hum groups at 100 can occasionally shoot like a house on fire farther down range. Part of the reason this can occur is because a bullet might experience yaw when it exits the barrel, and needs a bit of time to stabilize, so down range accuracy is better than close. Clearly this is not the case with every bullet or every load.
I believe that if you want to see how well a load groups at a specific range, you need to shoot it at that specific range. I prefer to see the accuracy potential of a load checked at 300 yards, but that is not always practical or even necessary, depending on what the rifle will be used for. If a load is to be used for a long range application, if it shoots at 300, it is worth checking again at 500, but if it doesn't shoot at 300 it won't shoot at 500. Whereas a load that shoots ho-hum groups at 100 can occasionally shoot like a house on fire farther down range. Part of the reason this can occur is because a bullet might experience yaw when it exits the barrel, and needs a bit of time to stabilize, so down range accuracy is better than close. Clearly this is not the case with every bullet or every load.
TargetNorth
Regular
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Very interesting guys. I'll try to get out on a good day, and shoot at 100m, with bags and see if I can do better. Unfortunately the weather up here in Yellowknife doesn't always comply, as in winter when it's calm, it's usually really really cold (-30 or colder) and when it warms up it's often with a lot of wind. Still though, every time I get out it's more experience, and eventually I'll get a calm day and hopefully get some nice groups.
TargetNorth
Regular
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Figuring stuff out!
Latest groups, 3 shots per group, letting barrel cool between groups. In order of shooting today:
Distance is 100m
.582"
.275"
.819"
1.554"
.950"
.924"
2.212"
.807"
.622"
Average = .972"
Average without that D*mn 2.212... = 0.817"
Can't say enough how pleased I am, thanks everyone for all of your advice. This is what I've done:
-Started shooting off bags, removed my sling swivels.
-Bedded the gun with JB Weld, removed a bit of plastic from the stock so it doesn't touch the barrel at all.
-Reseated the scope, set it straight vertical, tightened everything nice.
-Adjusted the trigger down to a very light level. Don't have a gauge, but breaks easily. Feels about similar to my accutrigger on my Savage.
-Quit using Hornady BTSP, as I noticed the lead on the tip is often not even and had advice that it doesn't work. Started using 58gr Varmint Grenades.
-Used the the ladder test to determine best charge (47.5gr H380) then picked best COL (looks to be 2.610, still have to shoot more)
-Cleaned all the oil between the action and the stock.
-Cleaned the barrel really well between every time out at the range (used to skip a few), ran 5x brass brush with solvent, then patches until they come clean (anywhere from 5 to 15 depending on... not sure what depending on... just depending on.)
I think that's what I've done. Thanks everyone for all your great advice, it is SO encouraging to break the 1" mark with a factory rifle. I'm saving for a precision rig (after I define precision of course... ) but in the meantime this is awesome.
Thanks again for your advice,
Barry
Latest groups, 3 shots per group, letting barrel cool between groups. In order of shooting today:
Distance is 100m
.582"
.275"
.819"
1.554"
.950"
.924"
2.212"
.807"
.622"
Average = .972"
Average without that D*mn 2.212... = 0.817"
Can't say enough how pleased I am, thanks everyone for all of your advice. This is what I've done:
-Started shooting off bags, removed my sling swivels.
-Bedded the gun with JB Weld, removed a bit of plastic from the stock so it doesn't touch the barrel at all.
-Reseated the scope, set it straight vertical, tightened everything nice.
-Adjusted the trigger down to a very light level. Don't have a gauge, but breaks easily. Feels about similar to my accutrigger on my Savage.
-Quit using Hornady BTSP, as I noticed the lead on the tip is often not even and had advice that it doesn't work. Started using 58gr Varmint Grenades.
-Used the the ladder test to determine best charge (47.5gr H380) then picked best COL (looks to be 2.610, still have to shoot more)
-Cleaned all the oil between the action and the stock.
-Cleaned the barrel really well between every time out at the range (used to skip a few), ran 5x brass brush with solvent, then patches until they come clean (anywhere from 5 to 15 depending on... not sure what depending on... just depending on.)
I think that's what I've done. Thanks everyone for all your great advice, it is SO encouraging to break the 1" mark with a factory rifle. I'm saving for a precision rig (after I define precision of course...
) but in the meantime this is awesome.Thanks again for your advice,
Barry
When I first started out shooting this was really helpful advice.
