Norc's and the 1 in 5 flyer ..NEW TEST RESULTS ANOTHER UPDATE.

Lost...again

Lost...again

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At one time or another we've all been gutted to have our nice little group ruined by that bloody flyer, right ?
So Ive been meaning to do this for ages, and was hoping to wait until I got some powder to roll my own...but I couldn't wait any more.
I had the range to myself, so was able to get prone in front of the firing line at about 75 yds.
5 different mags all loaded with Federal 150 soft point (all I could get, and good enough for this little experiment )
5 targets, each target is the first second third fourth and fifth shot from each mag, ie target 1 is all first round from each mag, target 2 is 2nd round.
Well I was hoping to see a difference of some sort, but theres nothing too dramatic to see.
All shots were taken with the gas off and cooling time between shots.









If anything is suspect its the fourth round.
Looking forward to doing this with some homemade stuff.
Still a nice morning at the range tho.
Cheers :)
 
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Interesting for sure
The infamous flier is found in all m14 type rifles and has been a topic of many discusssions on the various forums and firing lines for decades ;)
Interested in seeing more testing keep it coming :)
 
Lost - did you keep track of the order of your shots on the various targets, especially #1 and #4? Give us some idea of how your rifle is modded.

Your experience is very interesting since its completely different from mine. I dunno why the rifles are so different, part of what makes them infuriating and interesting. If you were using different mags, it could be due to differences mag-to-mag. Different pressure from the follower perhaps.

I posted my results with this exercise some months ago and found that it was my first round that was causing flyers, using the same mag each time. The thing was that target #1 showed distinct vertical stringing with the early rounds high, and the later rounds hitting close to the relative POI of the other targets. My theory was that the flyers were due to a cold bore.

Lately following target changes or any longer cool-down period I've started shooting a few into the berm before going for groups. I've definitely seen tighter average group sizes (approx. 30% reduction) and a recent best result of 0.6 MOA. Hopin' that is what the rifle is capable of, and I can hope to shoot up-to.
 
Pr589 said:
Lost - did you keep track of the order of your shots on the various targets, especially #1 and #4? Give us some idea of how your rifle is modded.

Your experience is very interesting since its completely different from mine. I dunno why the rifles are so different, part of what makes them infuriating and interesting. If you were using different mags, it could be due to differences mag-to-mag. Different pressure from the follower perhaps.

I posted my results with this exercise some months ago and found that it was my first round that was causing flyers, using the same mag each time. The thing was that target #1 showed distinct vertical stringing with the early rounds high, and the later rounds hitting close to the relative POI of the other targets. My theory was that the flyers were due to a cold bore.

Lately following target changes or any longer cool-down period I've started shooting a few into the berm before going for groups. I've definitely seen tighter average group sizes (approx. 30% reduction) and a recent best result of 0.6 MOA. Hopin' that is what the rifle is capable of, and I can hope to shoot up-to.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I didn't think about recording each shot until I got home and had a close look at the paper.(could of kicked myself in the bag)
It was the first thing I thought of when I saw them...bugger ! Should have kept track of each shot. Next time.
It was a bit of fun and I really want to do it with my homemade stuff, and I'll try your idea of a few into the berm to warm the barrel up before starting..

2009 Norc Longy 2500+ rounds thru her.
Blackarrow ORS guide
Hockeynight trigger job
EVERYTHING peeened and loctited, as per Hungry's clinic
Archangel stock
Cheap old bipod
Redfield 6-18x44 scope
Nc Star mount and rings of unknown origin .
A whole bunch of handloading gear, which is where the REAL improvements are to be found.
Im still in awe of your results.......gives me something to chase after LOL
Tight groups.

Quick update.
I mistakenly said I had a Black feather ORG..
I have a BLACKARROW ORSG
My Bad ( I do get easily confused )
 
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I'm incredibly cheap.
Only turn the gas on for a few minutes now and then :)
It also forces me to take my time, something I find VERY hard to do with the gas on.
Next time out will be 1 mag 5 targets and hopefully some homemade.
 
Thanks for taking the time to post your results. I love when people take the time to back up their hypothesis with controlled data. You should let her swing semi-auto for a test and use the same mag with strippers, but again very nice to see someone trying to prove or disprove a phenomena in the field, not just chew over it with a keyboard.

I'd try the same test Lost, but over irons, I probably be putting too much sight error into my groups to be conclusive, you however have a great set up for this testing.

I wonder though,...if the heavy scope base, mounts and scope itself changes the harmonics of the platform and makes it a better no-fly-zone compared to my GI guise?:canadaFlag:
 
I've noticed the same thing with my Garand. One round always out of the 5 round group.(I have some 5 round clips) I've always suspected it was the first but with no spotting scope I really don't know. Been planning on finding out some day. Haven't shot the old lady in a couple years. Maybe time to take her to the range for an outing. Also have friends with sons who have only fired a Garand on Tour of Duty or whatever the games are that make you a WWII veteran in the living room. Some would love the opportunity to try the real thing. Just need to put together a hundred rounds or so and make it happen.
 
I'd try the same test Lost, but over irons, I probably be putting too much sight error into my groups to be conclusive, you however have a great set up for this testing.

I would love to do this with irons, but I can hardly see the end of the barrel nowadays, never mind the front sight.
After giving it some more thought, I went about it arse first the other day ( as usual )
Would have been more conclusive, to myself at least, if I had used the same mag all the time.However, every cloud has a silver lining. I found out that all my mags perform about the same, even if I don't.
Next time , handloads, 1 mag, 5 targets and a shot by shot record.
Sounds like some youngsters are in for a treat with Old Ranger, should be a great day.
 
Lost

This is a most informative post.

Thank you very much for your work and effort in posting pictures.

If I may add a thought....

Consistency and accuracy in the M-14 platform come from the function of the gas system and its effects on the harmonics of the barrel.

You have a most excellent base line there with the gas off!!

It would be interesting to see how accuracy is effected with the gas system on.

Just food for thought, and keep up the good work.

regards

AbH
 
Thanks for the encouragement.
Next stage of my little project will include the newer test with the gas on, just to see how big a difference there is between the two.
Cheers
Derek
 
NEW TEST DATA FOR THAT F$%^&N FLYER
This is a follow on from my last little exercise in futility.
The gun is the same as is the ammo, Federal 150 soft point, range about 75 yds prone, gas off.
I'm still in pursuit of ammo ( for continuity, and I still cant find any H4895 )
The weather today was less than ideal, with a 30/40 kmh breeze blowing left to right across the range.
Approx 23 C.

I decided to start the test with a warm barrel and I needed to check the zero anyway so 15 rounds went thru her first

First 2 rounds were off paper to the right then I got her sorted.
This time around I picked one mag, not the best or the worst, and fired off one mag at all 5 targets.
This time I kept track of the sequence of shots on each target :)
Target 1 is the first round out of each reload, target 2 is the second round etc etc.
The numbers on each target are the order of arrival.
With the barrel being warm to start the test, and being kept at about the same temp throughout, there seems to be more consistency, though vertical stringing is apparent in some groups.
As for group 4, this came as a complete surprise after previous results, and yes I am framing it :)
The range was the same as before, about 75 yds prone.
So heres the rest of the pics.















BLOODY HELL !!!!!!!


That's more like it LOL.
Well I had a nice day at the range and will spend a few days trying to figure out what is in these pics.
Tight groups, and keep it cheap eh .
Derek :)
 
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That's some good shooting right there. I didn't see it mentioned but are you dropping the bolt on the first round or sliding it in gently? Same with reloading between shots, are you dropping or sliding the bolt? With a solid baseline it would be nice to see another test with the gas, both dropping the bolt and sliding the first one in to compare. I remember Barney mentioning that. Another thing my father told me was with his C1 they would fire two shots into the berm to warm the rifles before firing groups. Just some ideas to help round out your testing.
 
So, looking at the targets... The flier is certainly random eh?
And ya , nice shooting there ;)
I wouldn't ever gently chamber a round... That's inviting undesireable consequences. Falls under things not to do when chambering a round in the m14 hehehe
 
local guy introduced me to this problem when i got my first M14, and my findings have been the same as his.. the last round seems to be the flier, and generally a couple of inches high @ 100m .. his solution was to open his mag up to 7 rounds ( because we can in NZ ) and load a dummy round/snap cap as the last round..

his theory was that the final round in the magazine, once chambered would relieve any pressure a loaded mag would be putting on the underside of the bolt.. We didnt do any formal/on paper testing other than, "it works for us"

5-6 good shots before the dummy round, and no flier..

but thats our results, YMMV
 
That's great.
It drives me nuts!
I've had potential 3" groups at 100 with the irons ruined by that fackin' flyer :(

What I was planning on doing was working up the guts to leave my camera down range pointed at the target while I fired 5 rounds.

Do it 4-5 times and then check the footage to see which one it is.

Also try it with shots with a lot of time between to let the barrel cool right down.

I always suspected it to be the very first shot as the barrel would be cold. I know this happens even with M1A Springfields, I've seen it with my own eyes.

Very strange.
 
Thanks for the suggestions guys.
I ALWAYS let the bolt fly home good and hard, just like its supposed to. Im A bit wary of nursing the bolt into place for some reason LOL.
I put 15 rounds thru her before starting on the test groups so the barrel was at a fairly constant temperature throughout the test.
Next time out I will be firing groups consisting of only the first and last rounds, as in one off the top in a full mag, and single rounds in a mag. to see if there is any difference.
Travis, I tried it with a cold barrel for all shots previously and the results were far more erratic than with a warm barrel !! God knows what she'd be like with a hot barrel.
As soon as I can get some powder I'll try again with my sweet load and with the gas on.
Looking at yesterdays targets proves that there is such a thing as the chaos theory. Apart from a bit of vertical stringing there is no discernible pattern at all.

Meantime I'll just keep trying out different stuff, including alternative stock.
And the 4th group...........Yeah that made me smile, no idea how it happened. just hope it happens again ....and again :)

Cheers
Derek
 
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