Norc's and the 1 in 5 flyer ..NEW TEST RESULTS ANOTHER UPDATE.

Nice shooting Derek. Warming up the barrel does seem to help. Looking forward to seeing how your first and last round test goes.

I recently put on a new SEI Coast Guard brake on my stick and to my surprise, my gun's favorite load is no longer shooting so well. Need to do another load test to find the sweet spot again.

I want to start trying out the Blackfeather tension adjustment.
 
buckbrush said:
you have a very accurate M 305, it would be interesting to see how it does with Match ammo.
Click to expand...

I tried a whole bunch of 168 Matchking ? reloads last summer and got nowhere with them :(
It was disappointing because the 168 is supposed to be THE bullet for this gun.
I do a hell of a lot better with 150 FMJBT and 40.2 gr H4895 .
I may just have to save up and buy a box of the good stuff just to see for myself.
 
Lost - Try the 168s with 39.5 grains of 4895 and let us know what you think. This seems to work in many different rifles, including mine.
 
http://i1069.photobucket.com/albums/u480/lostagain3/ALLOFEM_zps5d6dbe54.jpg

Well I spent some time looking at this pic and finally I see some sort of pattern.
I was wondering how come the 4th and 5th groups were so much tighter than the rest, especially the 4th.
I'm starting to think it may have something to do with pressure on the bottom of the bolt. This obviously decreases as the rounds are ejected. Might explain why there are 3 obvious flyers in the first 3 targets and none so obvious in the last 2.
Definitely going to see if loading 2 rounds at a time will replicate the results in target 4.
Ah well, something else to test for next time out.
Big thanks to Fenix.....gave me a fresh train of thought :)
 
Great update thanks Lost for your time. Fenix may have something with the bolt pressure reduction on the last round. I guess firing one round loaded and striped from the mag at a time in a group and firing with gas off would show inherent accuracy of the barrel but of course not the platform itself in semi mode.

Lost try 165 Hornady interlocks if you try some more handloads. I loaded thousands of these years ago for myself and to sell to co-workers, if a .308Win firearm does not group well with these, it probably won't with anything. They were called 165 spire points back in the day and I used them over that glorious W-W 748 powder. This powder is a little too slow for the M-14's system though apparently. It always produced the best results in any so so accuracy bone stock .308, the cantankerous Browning BLR I had for one.

If I ever put my old Rockchucker back on line again, I'm trying some 165 hornady/WW748 pet loads with the gas off obviously, to test the barrels inherent accuracy if nothing else.
 
Somme, you are absolutely correct when you state that all the test so far will just show the inherent accuracy of a given barrel and not the platform itself.
Doing these tests with the gas off, has proved if nothing else, that the flyer exists with the gas on or off and it is just a quirk of the platform itself.
I am under no illusion that there is a fix for this situation ( unless you live in NZ lol ) but it will be a fine day when I can put my finger on a cause.
Then of course all the above will have to be repeated on semi-auto, and again with my handloads ( if I can ever get a powder replen !).
Sort of legitimises all the time I spend at the range :)
Thanks for all the tips fellas :)
 
Well I got out again to try something else but cut it short due to having the flu.
Got something out of the trip tho, and was very surprised.



I tried just loading one round at a time and got a very nice little vertical string, with the last shot off to the left.


Then I tried 2 rds in the mag to see if I could replicate the 4th round. As you can see it did reduce the vertical stringing somewhat but is still fairly ragged.


And just for the hell of it I turned the gas on ! The vertical string returned but the group is tighter than the groups with gas off.
I was NOT expecting this and will definitely be testing with the gas on again in the future. Starting to think the harmonics come into play here.


All criteria are the same as before, same gun, same range etc. 15 c and calm.
Was hoping to put 5 groups of 5 up but this flu is a bugger and I couldn't shoot to save me life today.

Will resume these tests with handloads and a clear head at a later date.

Keepin it cheap :)
 
RememberTheSomme said:
They were called 165 spire points back in the day and I used them over that glorious W-W 748 powder. This powder is a little too slow for the M-14's system though apparently. It always produced the best results in any so so accuracy bone stock .308, the cantankerous Browning BLR I had for one.
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree with the use of the 748. In all my shots I posted with my M14, my goto was 748 behind a CCI magnum primer and 150's. Cannot find a better load with my 223 than the 748 and a magnum primer 40 or 50 gr bullets.
 
Nothing to add as of now I'm afraid.
My last little soiree to the range ended up with me having pneumonia, so for the last few weeks Ive been grounded.
All is well now and Im hoping to get back at er this week now that I can actually walk and breathe at the same time LOL ( Never knew that 20 meters could seem so far eh LOOOOOOOOL )
Being laid up did give me time to do a bedding job and ferrule mod on an old plastic stock tho, so it will be interesting to see how that works out as well.
If anybody has any further suggestions or theories about the flyer, post em and I will give it a try.
Right now its snowing and I will be on the loading bench all day :)
Cheers and thanks for the interest
Derek.
 
My theory has always been the interaction of the bolt grabbing the round from the magazine not always the same from round to round but defiantly interested in your conclusion when done this testing.
Lost...again said:
At one time or another we've all been gutted to have our nice little group ruined by that bloody flyer, right ?
So Ive been meaning to do this for ages, and was hoping to wait until I got some powder to roll my own...but I couldn't wait any more.
I had the range to myself, so was able to get prone in front of the firing line at about 75 yds.
5 different mags all loaded with Federal 150 soft point (all I could get, and good enough for this little experiment )
5 targets, each target is the first second third fourth and fifth shot from each mag, ie target 1 is all first round from each mag, target 2 is 2nd round.
Well I was hoping to see a difference of some sort, but theres nothing too dramatic to see.
All shots were taken with the gas off and cooling time between shots.









If anything is suspect its the fourth round.
Looking forward to doing this with some homemade stuff.
Still a nice morning at the range tho.
Cheers :)
Click to expand...
 
Why not just try shooting groups with the gas off and the magazine removed? That way there will be no mag pressure variation on the bolt and all things will be the same for all shots.

Lost...again said:
Somme, you are absolutely correct when you state that all the test so far will just show the inherent accuracy of a given barrel and not the platform itself.
Doing these tests with the gas off, has proved if nothing else, that the flyer exists with the gas on or off and it is just a quirk of the platform itself.
I am under no illusion that there is a fix for this situation ( unless you live in NZ lol ) but it will be a fine day when I can put my finger on a cause.
Then of course all the above will have to be repeated on semi-auto, and again with my handloads ( if I can ever get a powder replen !).
Sort of legitimises all the time I spend at the range :)
Thanks for all the tips fellas :)
Click to expand...
 
I could be wrong but I personally don't believe there is a true magic pill for rifle's exhibiting a flier round as a matter of habit.
There are a lot of moving parts during the recoil cycle.
Spring and guide rod - tip engages magazine creating variables in the equation
Receiver/magazine fit and movement under cycle/recoil, more variables
Mag release fit/tension/movement of magazine variables again
Then there is oprod tab/track fit
Receiver raceway/bolt lug tracking
Man, there are too many tiny little things that could be a mechanical cause to flier rounds in these rifles. Then there is the question... Is it being caused by the chamber? Bore or muzzle deformations... I chased that dragon and finally came to the conclusion that as long as an M14 type rifle I'm building ends up a 2 MOA rifle all day long... I'm happy :) I'm exceptionally pleased and very proud when I've surpassed those expectations.
Sometimes it's ammo, wrong bullet weight for the twist can do funny things down range to an otherwise tack driving rifle.
The 1 in 5 flyer is created by one or more of way too many variables to worry about.
Fire 10 rounds into a target at 100 meters and see what you get. If they are all under 5" group , smile, your rifle is considered "above rack grade" by the 'ol US military NM specs"
If you expect better than this, find a competent builder, new parts and barrel and spend lotsa money. But don't expect better than 2 moa even with yer LRB receiver, krieger barrel gi bolt sei gas sytsem and trigger and dynamite reloads.... Be happy with 2 moa all day long and be ecstatic when yer build can shoot tighter groups than 2moa.
Others, especially on U.S. Forums may disagee but it's a semi auto with a violent action and making these rifles shoot like a fine tuned bolt action is just not the realworld norm.

That said, I was enjoying this thread and spring is here. more shooting time for updates?? :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom