Norinco AR

fwm

fwm

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I'm debating trying a service conditions match and the budget will be limited. I have thought of going M14S, but I think an AR would be better as I'm sure I would end up there anyway and ammo costs would eat up cost of the rifle in short order. My question is of the Norinco ARs which would be better suited for service conditions? The CQ311 has a 20" barrel, but a slow twist, limiting bullets to 55grs. The CQB has a faster twist, but only a 14" barrel. I would like to try iron sights at the start as I have never shot anything with a scope and I don't expect to be competetive at the start. To start I would realistically only make one maybe two matches in a year hence I don't want to shell out too much cash. A second question, how many mags would be needed to run the course without frustration.
 
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I'd go for the Newer CQ556 with the 14.5" barrel. You see many people doing service conditions using 14.5" and 16" Ar's. If you handload (or are using good factory ammo), you should have no problem being competitive. Sure, the guys you see winning them are using 24" heavy barreled Ar's and match grade ammo, but you can still get out and have a lot of fun with your basic CQ. I only had a plain Ar180 the first year I did SR... I think I came in dead last the few times I made it out, but I sure had fun!

You can also get some decent SR optics in the sub $500 range. A used Elcan C79 off the EE or new Vortex, Millet and Falcon scopes are all in that price range and serve quite well in that role.

As for mags, I think the recommendation is now 10 (not sure if you need that many though).
 
If you have to shoot 55gr bullets all the way back to 500m, you will find that you really get blown around at the longer ranges.
If you are only going to shoot CQB type matches, slow twists are fine.
There are ARs with shorter barrels that shoot very well. You really want a rifle that can hold under 2 minutes. A good shooter can do well with a carbine, don't know how many of the top shooters use one though. Standard length rifles tend to be more the norm. An M4 type stock might be useful for some positions. Norinco doesn't offer a 20" with fast twist barrel.
You can have fun with irons. You will likely get much better results with a scope.
It is possible to compete with an Elcan. Service personnel regularly use them. They don't have a choice. These are not trouble free. During the zeroing walkback last August I watched a CF shooter go through a few of them by the time we had moved back to 300m, before finding one that seemed to work. This was the third one. If you get an Elcan remember to get some paracord to tie a washer to your left wrist for windage adjustments. For less money, there a many better choices.
Haven't used a Vortex, have used the Falcon Menace, and the Millet. The FM has better adjustments than the Millet. Either the FM or the Millet is a cost effective option.
I have just upgraded from a FM to a Leupold 1 1/2-5 with target knobs fitted. Cost twice as much as the FM. We'll see if it is twice the scope. I do prefer the duplex reticle. I'm not retiring the FM - I have two uppers. The FM is on one with a 1:8 barrel I turned from a blank, the Leupold is on the second which is fitted with a new take-off Stevens 200 1:9 barrel. Just zeroed it this morning, looks promising, should be able to go sub two minutes.
Equipment is all very well. But being able to shoot effectively in the different positions, with some physical exertion thrown in is very important.
Yes, you can compete with a M-14S, and some folks do remarkably well, but the learning curve is steeper.
The important thing is to get out and shoot.
 
Is it still possible to compete with a No4 Lee Enfield? It is something I already have and the whole point for right now would be just to get out and shoot something challenging. I reload, so I could load lighter bullets with less recoil for the shorter distance matches to help with fatigue. Like I say for now the point would be to just get out and do it, learn the basics and hopefully get more serious as time goes on.
 
Yes, a No.4 could be used. There are reports of bullets being intended for the 7.62x39 being used successfully for reduced recoil.
Using a No.4 with issue sights would result in a REALLY steep learning curve - but getting out and shooting is the important thing.
 
I use the 14.5" Norc AR and run mid pack in scores at our matches (and its my first year). The Nprc is great for the price. I shoot better prone at 500 than doing some of the 200m matches, so you cwn tell that the shooter is the thing the counts.

I reload with a 68 grain match bullet, I would say you almost need to reload to be competitive with the Norc, it shrunk my groups in half. Your Norc will accept a weaver base, so scoping it does not have to be hard or expensive. I used a 3-9x40 off a .243 (although Im going to upgrade soon) I'd get optics ASAP, they lessen the learning curve and make you competitive.
 
At CFSAC, the Rangers shoot No. 4s alongside CF personnel shooting C7s, same course of fire. There are separate prizes for Rangers.
If there were enough bolt action shooters in a civilian sponsored SR match, there could be a separate class.
For SR competition, it is pretty hard to get a rifle that is more competitive than an AR, without spending quite a bit more money.
Perhaps the best thing for you to do would be to look at the course of fire, and the match results, and decide if it would be reasonable for you to enter with a No.4.
 
The Rangers I saw shooting the SR course of fire had about 3 months practice under their belts. They did an admirable job of shooting, but were hard pressed to keep up with the AR's.
I would think it would be pretty difficult for the average shooter with an Enfield to keep up with the game.

Hell, it would still be a blast though just for sh!ts and giggles.. :D
 
You'll do fine with a Norinco AR. Cheaper ammo vs M14 means more practice and you'll get better faster. You'll definetly need an optic. At 400m, your front post will be fully covering your target lol.
 
I had the opportunity to shoot service rifle with the LE #4mk1 a couple of years ago. It is a lot of fun and can be really challenging, but one of the guys I was shooting with managed to be a top shot in one of the matches against a lot of C7 and C8s. Pretty impressive for a 60 year old rifle.

One word of advise if you're using it - practice. Know how your rear sight works, and don't worry too much about recoil during the matches. For the 12 matches you're shooting 184 rounds total, usually spread over a day or two. Also don't worry about changing bullet weights. Keep it the same all the time so that your settings on your sights will always be consistent.

Just my thoughts. Have fun!
 
Remember that only Ontario has adopted the CFSAC course of fire from last year and are running with it.
The CFSAC course of fire for this year has not been released so most PRAs seem to be running the old matches 1-12 with small changes. I consider this to be the better choice for training value and introducing people to the sport.
 
Ar180shooter said:
I'd go for the Newer CQ556 with the 14.5" barrel. You see many people doing service conditions using 14.5" and 16" Ar's. If you handload (or are using good factory ammo), you should have no problem being competitive. Sure, the guys you see winning them are using 24" heavy barreled Ar's and match grade ammo, but you can still get out and have a lot of fun with your basic CQ. I only had a plain Ar180 the first year I did SR... I think I came in dead last the few times I made it out, but I sure had fun!

You can also get some decent SR optics in the sub $500 range. A used Elcan C79 off the EE or new Vortex, Millet and Falcon scopes are all in that price range and serve quite well in that role.

As for mags, I think the recommendation is now 10 (not sure if you need that many though).
Click to expand...

I scored 545 with a bushmaster M4 using run of the mill ball ammo years ago in the old 1-12 match - with an ACOG TA31F to boot.

It is time to put the 24" space gun thing to rest. You do not need a space gun and match ammo to win. You do not need to use a Hubble Telescope to win either.
 
greentips said:
I scored 545 with a bushmaster M4 using run of the mill ball ammo years ago in the old 1-12 match - with an ACOG TA31F to boot.

It is time to put the 24" space gun thing to rest. You do not need a space gun and match ammo to win. You do not need to use a Hubble Telescope to win either.
Click to expand...

So...did you win? ;)
 
Does the 'rinco have standard pin sizes?
If it does, you could always start there and build a decent upper with a 20" floated barrel when the funds permitted...if you felt you needed or wanted it.
 
Until I get my restricted and an M4, I will be using my M14 with a Hi-Lux scope at the next service shoot. I'm coming to the next CQB where I'll be using the M14. I've been practicing at my son's farm.
 
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