Norinco M-14 WARNING!!!
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Brobee, Thansk for the info. I have used Fed Gold Match 168 gr occasionally in one of my stock norc's without any problems. Based on this info, should I cease this? I always had good results at the range, as well the rifle was always properly cleaned before the next range session......
it was locked up solid, so there was no second round- the mag blew apart and the stock split from forearm to pistol grip-first and only time i've ever used a broken case extractor- it was the brass that fatigued and nothing else- incidnetally it was an springy and NOT a norinco-or maybe an h&r - i'd have to look at the "battery" again-anywya, what really hurt was that it was one of those folders( a beretta)
I have posted detailed warnings about this possibility here at least twice previously. Some Norinoco M14s have an out-of-spec (too large) firing pin hole in the bolt face, which combined with a slightly narrow firing pin tip, can produce a dangerous situation. During firing, primer metal extrudes into the firing-pin channel, eventually building to the point where the pin jams, usually FORWARD. Replacing the pin with a USGI pin usually closes the gap enough to stop the extrusion problem from happening. If I have time, I'll try to dig up my original post.
i dont think so, just mil surplus
I think the problem here was the RELOADS, as he stated thats what he was using. I believe there is a very informative piece on the Fulton Arms website about the dangers of using reloads in a semi-auto arm. Obviously keeping your gun in good working order involves proper cleaning and looking for danger signs and damage. And for all the reloaders; before you flame me read the Fulton piece, you might learn something new or at least have some new ideas to consider. As for me I will continue to keep my rifle clean and use FACTORY rounds of all brands without fear. At least that way I can pursue legal recourse if the worst were to happen 
Oh and I am sure all of us here know to never use bullets above the recommended 165 gr limit in our semis, right?
Oh and I am sure all of us here know to never use bullets above the recommended 165 gr limit in our semis, right?
Brobee has made an excellent post. Read it and learn.......
For Reloaders use the CCI #34 Military Primer. It is specifically made for the M1/M14 & 7.62 X 39 semi auto rifles.These primers have a harder cup then the normal commerical primers.
In general commerical primers are too soft for these rifles, as they have a free floating firing pin and the firing pin will/can make a slight indentation on the primer when the bolt slams forward and locks up.
Chamber a round and then extract it imediately and have a look at the primer.........
I have used Federal Match primers in the past without any issues, BUT you are taking a risk by doing so.There is always the chance that a a standard commerical primer will go BOOM prematurely...........
I reccomend using the CCI #34 Military primers and full length size your cases.A Small Base die set may be required for a "Match" chamber.
I ran all my M14s with a 1.630" headspace and set up my dies accordingly. The most accurate M14 rifle I ever owned was built by Hungry and was chamber at 1.628" .................two thou crush on the case...............I was getting 20 reloads on a batch of Winchester cases I bought new.
This was using all USGI parts...........in particular I used all TRW parts..........
This rifle would shoot 0.25 to 0.50 MOA all day long. I could put a round through a .38 Spl case at 200 yards with it.................
SKBY.
For Reloaders use the CCI #34 Military Primer. It is specifically made for the M1/M14 & 7.62 X 39 semi auto rifles.These primers have a harder cup then the normal commerical primers.
In general commerical primers are too soft for these rifles, as they have a free floating firing pin and the firing pin will/can make a slight indentation on the primer when the bolt slams forward and locks up.
Chamber a round and then extract it imediately and have a look at the primer.........
I have used Federal Match primers in the past without any issues, BUT you are taking a risk by doing so.There is always the chance that a a standard commerical primer will go BOOM prematurely...........
I reccomend using the CCI #34 Military primers and full length size your cases.A Small Base die set may be required for a "Match" chamber.
I ran all my M14s with a 1.630" headspace and set up my dies accordingly. The most accurate M14 rifle I ever owned was built by Hungry and was chamber at 1.628" .................two thou crush on the case...............I was getting 20 reloads on a batch of Winchester cases I bought new.
This was using all USGI parts...........in particular I used all TRW parts..........
This rifle would shoot 0.25 to 0.50 MOA all day long. I could put a round through a .38 Spl case at 200 yards with it.................
SKBY.
bad reload
I am no expert, and I do not reload. But I doubt that the primers were at fault in this case. With this one phrase I am going to say that your reload was probably a double charge. If it was a slam fire, it would have done it when you released the bolt catch. And slam fires usually happen when you drop a round into the chamber and release the bolt insead of feeding from a mag. Anyone else agree with me??
I am no expert, and I do not reload. But I doubt that the primers were at fault in this case. With this one phrase I am going to say that your reload was probably a double charge. If it was a slam fire, it would have done it when you released the bolt catch. And slam fires usually happen when you drop a round into the chamber and release the bolt insead of feeding from a mag. Anyone else agree with me??
OK, FINE,
This is one of the very few actual KABOOMS we have ever had with any M-14 rifle here in Canuckistan, so let’s look at it carefully:
First of all, there is no firing pin spring in an M-14.
The firing pin is cammed in and out of engagement by the bolt turning and the receiver bridge allowing or blocking the firing pin tail through the slot in the receiver. This is called receiver/bolt/firing pin timing. When this timing is properly set up, the firing pin can NOT go forward until the bolt is most of the way into the locking lugs. This is one of the built in safety devices of the M-14, and in every M-14 type rifle I've ever checked [ and this is DOZENS ] this mechanism was working as designed.
SO,
possible reasons for a closed chamber KABOOM:
1.] Bullet to neck fit aka” “draw” not enough, allowing the bullet to be pushed back into the case and creating massive pressure jump on firing.
2.] Obstruction in bore …
as in - the first bullet did not have enough powder to get out of the barrel.
But, this usually would also mean there was not enough gas to cycle the action, and loading the second round would require manual activation of the op rod.
3. ] Reloads too long for chamber or dirty chamber
4.] Soft primers ... the inertia of the bolt slamming closed will usually leave a slight dimple in the primers [ SLIGHT dimple = just barely noticeable ]. Check your unfired rounds once in a while, and you will probably see the mark ]. This should happen ONLY when the bolt is fully home, and the round is fully chambered.
what IaninVic said:
The M 14 is designed to fire military ammunition with hard primers
Federal primers and reloads without a really heavy crimp will go bang badly. Also the brass must be full length resized for each reload, you can't neck size for a semi. The loading cycle for these guns really slams the loaded round up the ramp and more or less jams it into the chamber, without a strong crimp the bullet sets back into the case.This reduces the case capacity and drives pressures through the roof. With the M14 if you're reloading use CCI milspec primers and a very strong crimp, also use projectiles similar to the military weight (147-168 for 7.62) and select a powder with a similar burn rate (same velocity) to military spec.
This is very good advice,
However,
I have personally shot literally thousands of rounds of FACTORY LOADED Federal 168 Gr HP BT Match .308 ammo out of properly built M-14s without a problem.
Possible reasons for an OPEN bolt Kaboom [ which this sounds more like ]
“ … when I looked at the ground i realized what had happened. After the first round went off, the bolt came back and loaded the next shell, but not all the way. It was struck by the firing pin before the round was properly placed and caused it to explode which was directed downwards and caused 2 other rounds to go off in the mag …”.
1.] Primers not seated fully [ MOST LIKELY CAUSE for reloads ]
2.] Firing pin extrusion too large, again with the M-14 built in safety mechanisms, this is not usually a problem, but if the rear tip of the firing pin is worn, or chipped,then this could be significant.
3.] broken firing pin or dirty filthy firing pin slot …
same as # 3 above and another likely cause
5.] Hammer following and slam fire … but again, if the timing is correct, this should NOT happen.
Prevention:
What Brobee said … every bit of it valuable and proven advice
PS: while I have reloaded for the M-14, I no longer do so. When I did reload, I used my own once fired MILITARY brass [ not pickups from the range that may have been fired though an MG with horrendous headspace]. I would NOT recommend reloading fired commercial brass, especially not if you don’t KNOW FOR CERTAIN that your headspace is right for .308. Read the stickies on M-14 headspace …
most of the current crop of 14s that I have checked recently, new out of the box, are running about .012" - .014” thou GREATER THAN 7.62 NATO GO … which is already .0005” greater than SAMMI specs for .308 Winchester NO GO.
Case head separation on reloads from long chambered rifles is a very real possibility. Although, even with these very long headspaces, I have no personal knowledge of case head separation with NEW factory loaded .308, and none with thicker walled 7.62 NATO ammo.
As usual,
with any advice you get from the internet,
your personal mileage may vary.
PS: I have thre Norc M-14 rilfes, all with longer than spec headspace, and I trust thesde over almost any other Mil Surp type rifle.
[;{)
LAZ 1
This is one of the very few actual KABOOMS we have ever had with any M-14 rifle here in Canuckistan, so let’s look at it carefully:
First of all, there is no firing pin spring in an M-14.
The firing pin is cammed in and out of engagement by the bolt turning and the receiver bridge allowing or blocking the firing pin tail through the slot in the receiver. This is called receiver/bolt/firing pin timing. When this timing is properly set up, the firing pin can NOT go forward until the bolt is most of the way into the locking lugs. This is one of the built in safety devices of the M-14, and in every M-14 type rifle I've ever checked [ and this is DOZENS ] this mechanism was working as designed.
SO,
possible reasons for a closed chamber KABOOM:
1.] Bullet to neck fit aka” “draw” not enough, allowing the bullet to be pushed back into the case and creating massive pressure jump on firing.
2.] Obstruction in bore …
as in - the first bullet did not have enough powder to get out of the barrel.
But, this usually would also mean there was not enough gas to cycle the action, and loading the second round would require manual activation of the op rod.
3. ] Reloads too long for chamber or dirty chamber
4.] Soft primers ... the inertia of the bolt slamming closed will usually leave a slight dimple in the primers [ SLIGHT dimple = just barely noticeable ]. Check your unfired rounds once in a while, and you will probably see the mark ]. This should happen ONLY when the bolt is fully home, and the round is fully chambered.
what IaninVic said:
The M 14 is designed to fire military ammunition with hard primers
Federal primers and reloads without a really heavy crimp will go bang badly. Also the brass must be full length resized for each reload, you can't neck size for a semi. The loading cycle for these guns really slams the loaded round up the ramp and more or less jams it into the chamber, without a strong crimp the bullet sets back into the case.This reduces the case capacity and drives pressures through the roof. With the M14 if you're reloading use CCI milspec primers and a very strong crimp, also use projectiles similar to the military weight (147-168 for 7.62) and select a powder with a similar burn rate (same velocity) to military spec.
This is very good advice,
However,
I have personally shot literally thousands of rounds of FACTORY LOADED Federal 168 Gr HP BT Match .308 ammo out of properly built M-14s without a problem.
Possible reasons for an OPEN bolt Kaboom [ which this sounds more like ]
“ … when I looked at the ground i realized what had happened. After the first round went off, the bolt came back and loaded the next shell, but not all the way. It was struck by the firing pin before the round was properly placed and caused it to explode which was directed downwards and caused 2 other rounds to go off in the mag …”.
1.] Primers not seated fully [ MOST LIKELY CAUSE for reloads ]
2.] Firing pin extrusion too large, again with the M-14 built in safety mechanisms, this is not usually a problem, but if the rear tip of the firing pin is worn, or chipped,then this could be significant.
3.] broken firing pin or dirty filthy firing pin slot …
same as # 3 above and another likely cause
5.] Hammer following and slam fire … but again, if the timing is correct, this should NOT happen.
Prevention:
What Brobee said … every bit of it valuable and proven advice
PS: while I have reloaded for the M-14, I no longer do so. When I did reload, I used my own once fired MILITARY brass [ not pickups from the range that may have been fired though an MG with horrendous headspace]. I would NOT recommend reloading fired commercial brass, especially not if you don’t KNOW FOR CERTAIN that your headspace is right for .308. Read the stickies on M-14 headspace …
most of the current crop of 14s that I have checked recently, new out of the box, are running about .012" - .014” thou GREATER THAN 7.62 NATO GO … which is already .0005” greater than SAMMI specs for .308 Winchester NO GO.
Case head separation on reloads from long chambered rifles is a very real possibility. Although, even with these very long headspaces, I have no personal knowledge of case head separation with NEW factory loaded .308, and none with thicker walled 7.62 NATO ammo.
As usual,
with any advice you get from the internet,
your personal mileage may vary.
PS: I have thre Norc M-14 rilfes, all with longer than spec headspace, and I trust thesde over almost any other Mil Surp type rifle.
[;{)
LAZ 1
A test I perform with every new to me SKS.
In this case Czech surplus ammo, load 2 rounds, fire one, and eject the chambered unfired round.
If this had been with commercial primers, or had the firing pin been dirty with crud, or old cosmoline then chances are it would have touched off the next round, and so on and so on.
I know this for a fact as I have reloaded this cartridge with regular primers and yes it will happen.
Especially federal which in my experience are very sensitive.
IMHO Reload the 7.62x39 for the SKS with CCI #34 arsenal primers.
Check your reloading manual for the requirements for your M14.
But I bet you need tougher primers as well.
Last edited:
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
This is a reminder to shooters (me included) to be careful not to smack cleaning rods into that bolt face. A new bolt is only $399 from Marstar complete with another set of spare parts. I have started using an orange plastic drip-catcher in the breech of M1s and M14s, and find it is quite easy to bump into that bolt face.
Please edit your thread's title.
Exactly.
The title of this thread, "Norinco M-14 Warning!!!", should be edited to something like Reloading for Semi-automatic rifles.
Norinco, and the U.S. Rifle M-14, should not be slandered by such a misleading title.
The fault belongs solely to the nut behind the gun.
Exactly.
The title of this thread, "Norinco M-14 Warning!!!", should be edited to something like Reloading for Semi-automatic rifles.
Norinco, and the U.S. Rifle M-14, should not be slandered by such a misleading title.
The fault belongs solely to the nut behind the gun.
Dukeoflawnchair
CGN frequent flyer
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- Fort St John
Perhaps this even merits a sticky in the reloading page, in regards to primers in surplus semi's?
How convenient....just heap the "fault" the shooter and his re-loads. Grow up people! There are many, many different mechanical things that can contribute to this problem on top of the primer issue. Unless you can eliminate completely all these other potential mechanical causes it's pre-mature to point the finger at the shooter. And given that none of us will ever have the opportunity to conduct a thorough failure analysis on the left over parts any conclusions we come to are nothing more than speculation.
I think the title of the thread is fine the way it is. To soley blame the shooter is, IMHO, pulling a major ostritch maneuver.
I think the title of the thread is fine the way it is. To soley blame the shooter is, IMHO, pulling a major ostritch maneuver.
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