norinco m14 groups?

ALMAR

ALMAR

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USA, Savannah GA
What kind of groups should I expect with this rifle? I am getting very bad groups..enough to just get rid of the rifle. I replaced the spring guide with the black arrow, and tightened the op rod guide but come on, if 4 inch groups at 50 yards is as good as it gets...I'm not wasting anymore of my ammo. IF anyone gets better with stock parts let me know i'll try to figure it out but this is ridiculous. I used norinco ammo AND federal 150gr. I used scope and iron sights, no index issues, no loose gas system.

I noticed that the op rod and piston are about 1/8 off centered but how can that be the main problem?

To top it all off my bolt fell apart again at the range, sigh...I love this rifle but also hate it sometimes...i'll order a new set of springs for the bolt...

Anyways is the 4" groups what I should expect or not? And no it's not just the shooter :p.
 
Go to one of tactical teachers M14 clinics, well worth it.

I had the same issue with my bolt last weekend, make sure the bearing roller is well greased with white lithium.
 
4 inches at 50 yds is the worst Ive ever heard of for a Norc, even straight out of the box should be around 4 inches at 100.
Tweaked and tuned Norcs with a sweet handload seriously capable of around 1.5 - 2 inches at 100, some even better.
What year is the gun ?
It seems there are a few people having bolt problems recently.
If you could centre the oprod, it wouldn't do any harm and it may reveal a bent oprod, theres been a bit of that about as well.
The Norcs are very picky about ammo.
Just changing the spring guide should have shown a slight improvement, what was it like before ?
 
No not typical. Ive.gotten 1.5 inch groups with barnaul 147gr @ 100m with no upgrades. Also get 2.5+3 inch groups with the norinco x51. Outta my soc18.

As frumpy said a clinic would help. Or if you feel like tackling accurizing it, check out the stickies on the m14/305 on here.
 
From my experience, it should do max. 4" at 100 with ammo it likes as is,,,, They are not tack drivers, a good tuned one will do between 1- 2 inches at 100 yds.

Mine is a 2moa rifle most days with my loads, supported off the bench with rear bag. Only mods are spring guide, usgi sights and Bassett scope mount with 4 power scope.

I put it in a boyds walnut stock but it did just as well with the original chu wood, changed mostly for appearance,

You need to get to one of Hungrys clinics to get it figured out,,in the meantime try another type of ammo, check front and rear sights, gas plug and flashhider for tightness.

There is more to do, but these are basic and essential checks. Good luck, when you get one shooting to its potential and can keep it there it is satisfying,,
 
Thanks guys, I'm happy it's not the norm. I don't know what the heck it is right now...I guess this guy has some major reading ahead of him. I'll try to get the thing centered but I have a feeling i'ts something else. I dont know how I shot before, I changed the guide before even shooting it.Thanks again.
 
Not to be miserable about it, but are you a good irons shooter? If that might be an issue is there anyone you know that could shoot it also and compare results?
 
Is it in a plastic stock?
And how many times has your bolt fell apart?
This does seem to be a recurring issue for more than a few guys and not really an issue in past years with new rifles.
My guess is there's a bunch of bolts out there with slightly oversized extractor holes. Can you say "holy warranty issue batman" :D
If my new rifle was spitting bolt guts it would be going back to where I bought it from.
As for accuracy of 4" at 50yards. I'd look at tension on the barrel at the gas band plate as a result of the stock putting pressure against the vertical face of the gas band. Should be a gap here as it's not supposed to be a recoil bearing surface. If not the problem.... I dunno could be lots of things.
But I'll go back to my earlier comment about.... If my new rifle was repeatedly spitting it's bolt guts..... I'd be sending it back for warranty and I could care less about how accurate it shot .....
 
Here's how mine did @100m with the Federal, brand new and dead stock except for a couple of adjustments of factory parts to make them work properly:

Fed1.jpg
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BattleRife said:
Here's how mine did @100m with the Federal, brand new and dead stock except for a couple of adjustments of factory parts to make them work properly:

Fed1.jpg
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Click to expand...

Not bad .... A hair over 3 3/4" 10 shot group , not bad at all for an M14 and in the real world considered "above rack grade" accuracy
 
for 100 yards on irons!?!?!?!

when i shoot 4" groups on irons at 100yards i consider it to be a good day!
seriously thats a heart shot on any big animal at 100 yards.
hell, you wont even be able to see most animals behind the pillar of your front sight at 100yards and your putting 10 in 4"!!

had my dad out today with his new M305 and he wasnt even hitting paper at 55 yards
 
45ACPKING said:
Is it in a plastic stock?
And how many times has your bolt fell apart?
This does seem to be a recurring issue for more than a few guys and not really an issue in past years with new rifles.
My guess is there's a bunch of bolts out there with slightly oversized extractor holes. Can you say "holy warranty issue batman" :D
If my new rifle was spitting bolt guts it would be going back to where I bought it from.
As for accuracy of 4" at 50yards. I'd look at tension on the barrel at the gas band plate as a result of the stock putting pressure against the vertical face of the gas band. Should be a gap here as it's not supposed to be a recoil bearing surface. If not the problem.... I dunno could be lots of things.
But I'll go back to my earlier comment about.... If my new rifle was repeatedly spitting it's bolt guts..... I'd be sending it back for warranty and I could care less about how accurate it shot .....
Click to expand...

I swapped the plastic stock for the boyds walnut stock and hand guard.

The bolt spilling it's guts is my fault...I stupidly shortened the extractor spring by a coil or 2 to ease assembly without thinking of the consequences. It's about 0.46" long compared to the required 0.48". I thought I fixed it by shimming it but it did it again...only after 200 rounds though compared to the last time when it popped out after less than 100 rounds...it is frustrating but it's entirely my fault....well we will see if it's ENTIRELY my fault when I install the new spring...I feel it probably is.

My only real concern here was the bad groups and maybe I just suck with iron sights...because I noticed last night that the rear screw on the scope mount had loosened a lot compared to when I tightened it, I just did not think that it would loosen so quickly...I will have to fix the loosening of that mount before looking anywhere else. Sorry if I wasted your time guys, it's a little embarrassing...I should think of looking at the obvious stuff first.
 
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LOL.
You aren't the first and you wont be the last, to find out that this gun is some hard on scopes and mounts.
Blue Loctite is going to be your friend. Happened to me a few times before I realised what it was.

Glad you got something to work with.
 
Lost...again said:
LOL.
You aren't the first and you wont be the last, to find out that this gun is some hard on scopes and mounts.
Blue Loctite is going to be your friend. Happened to me a few times before I realised what it was.

Glad you got something to work with.
Click to expand...

I read about Loctite, I'm getting some tomorrow. I also removed the 1/8 offset of the rod from the piston, I slides back and forth without sticking now. This rifle is like a muscle car, it's a beast but it needs knowhow.
 
Bolt fell apart at the range? If you mean "magically popped off" then we have more than just good looks in common...and they said I was crazy
ALMAR said:
What kind of groups should I expect with this rifle? I am getting very bad groups..enough to just get rid of the rifle. I replaced the spring guide with the black arrow, and tightened the op rod guide but come on, if 4 inch groups at 50 yards is as good as it gets...I'm not wasting anymore of my ammo. IF anyone gets better with stock parts let me know i'll try to figure it out but this is ridiculous. I used norinco ammo AND federal 150gr. I used scope and iron sights, no index issues, no loose gas system.

I noticed that the op rod and piston are about 1/8 off centered but how can that be the main problem?

To top it all off my bolt fell apart again at the range, sigh...I love this rifle but also hate it sometimes...i'll order a new set of springs for the bolt...

Anyways is the 4" groups what I should expect or not? And no it's not just the shooter :p.
Click to expand...
 
Almar are your groups wider than they are high? Say 4" wide by 2" high? Just trying to establish a few things so we can start with recommendations. Is your rear and front sight tight, no movement? Bad for windage increase in group size(left to right)

I remember trying to help a fellow nutter who was getting terrible groups in the windage department mostly, and I felt it was trigger control causing this as it always seemed I tended to put more windage than elevation into my groups without lots of trigger time. My suggestions were more or less scoffed at, and as it turned out in later posts, the front sight was very loose so the rifle itself was not a POS and the "windage widdened" groups were still as much shooter error as a bad trigger pull off. I assumed as many do here,.. most people have basic rifle familiarity and recognize basic rifle sight set up and I didn't even consider it when trying to help with the MOA, my fault.

So your gas plug is tight? Puts a big change in groups vertical stringing. Most issues can be sorted out here on the Battle Rifle thread, Good Luck.

Any bone stock Norc with any bulk factory ammo should produce those group sizes you are getting(4") or less at 100 yards if the rifleman does his part.
 
I'm going to the range again either tomorrow or next weekend to test the Loctite and i'll get back to you guy's. If I remember correctly, the groups with the iron sights were randomly spread out...
 
Turn the gas off and shoot some groups. I always recommend this as it takes the movement of the gas system out of the equation. Then you're left with ammo, bedding, sights, hold and trigger control to diagnose. If this improves groups considerably, then you decide if you want to buy a better guide rod, tighten up the op rod guide and other things that effect how the rifle shoots as an self loader.
 
SoBored said:
Turn the gas off and shoot some groups. I always recommend this as it takes the movement of the gas system out of the equation. Then you're left with ammo, bedding, sights, hold and trigger control to diagnose. If this improves groups considerably, then you decide if you want to buy a better guide rod, tighten up the op rod guide and other things that effect how the rifle shoots as an self loader.
Click to expand...

Very good!! Thanks!
 
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