Norinco or SAM 1911

Never held a norinco but just got the gf a SAM commander in 9mm and I'm quite impressed with it so far, fit and finish is very good. Feels nice, trigger isn't gritty, no edges that need to be deburred. Haven't shot it yet but plan to as soon as the registration card gets here.
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Hitzy said:
Ruger SR1911 has a cast frame, same with the STI Spartans..... Not something to worry about.
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The Ruger has been available for about five minutes, not sure what we can tell about long term durability from that. Just sayin.

All things being equal (which they are not in this case), would you prefer a cast or a forged frame?

Regardless, in terms of metallurgy, I'd be more concerned about small parts being MIM rather than milled.
 
alpining said:
The Ruger has been available for about five minutes,i not sure what we can tell about long term durability from that. Just sayin.

All things being equal (which they are not in this case), would you prefer a cast or a forged frame?

Regardless, in terms of metallurgy, I'd be more concerned about small parts being MIM rather than milled.
Click to expand...

Ruger has been casting pistol frames and rifle receivers for a long time, they are new to the 1911 bandwagon but they know casting very well.
Armscorp and SAM have been making 1911s for decades, not sure how long they have been casting, but STI would not use them if they were crap.
For a pistol under $800 I don't care about cast or forged, I care about QC and proper fitting. I actually have a Spartan IV and have been shooting the :bigHug::bigHug::bigHug::bigHug: out of it....its a well made, tight gun.
I have an older Nork np29, while it may be forged, its pretty sloppy in the fitting department, with many tool marks and the inside of the dust cover looks like it was chisled out.
Now with the SAM vs Nork, its not a $350 vs $800 argument, its much closer in price. The cast vs forged is not as big of a deal as having a well fit and finished gun imho that has been properly qc'd.
 
Lots of good replies above.

SAM is a relatively new brand here in North America but IIRC, that company has been around for many decades selling in the Philippine domestic market. Armscor has been building firearms and manufacturing ammo for more than 50 years. Armscor has its own casting plant as well.

As well, Norinco has been mfg. proven 1911s for a very long time perhaps more than 40 years or maybe even before the Vietnam war.

So it really depends on what is important to the OP. Fit and finish, which the SAM is definitely better, or steel quality, which is the Norinco's strong suit. We can't even say for sure if the tougher 5100 series Norinco steel is better than the cast 4140 SAM steel. What is important is that the steel is of the correct grade and heat treated appropriately.

Personally, I will go for what I think is better steel. Three of my Norkies do have the rough edges everyone whines about. That is a minor concern for me and an easy fix should I ever see the need. Anyway, these three just get better everytime I shoot them. The other Norkie has been custom'ed by Roger Kotanko and it is a beautifully fitted and finished piece.
 
easyrider604 said:
Lots of good replies above.

SAM is a relatively new brand here in North America but IIRC, that company has been around for many decades selling in the Philippine domestic market. Armscor has been building firearms and manufacturing ammo for more than 50 years. Armscor has its own casting plant as well.

As well, Norinco has been mfg. proven 1911s for a very long time perhaps more than 40 years or maybe even before the Vietnam war.

So it really depends on what is important to the OP. Fit and finish, which the SAM is definitely better, or steel quality, which is the Norinco's strong suit. We can't even say for sure if the tougher 5100 series Norinco steel is better than the cast 4140 SAM steel. What is important is that the steel is of the correct grade and heat treated appropriately.

Personally, I will go for what I think is better steel. Three of my Norkies do have the rough edges everyone whines about. That is a minor concern for me and an easy fix should I ever see the need. Anyway, these three just get better everytime I shoot them. The other Norkie has been custom'ed by Roger Kotanko and it is a beautifully fitted and finished piece.
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SAM's biggest plus is that since 2008 they have been CNC'ing these pistols. They already had an OK reputation from prior to that, they are very familiar with the 1911 platform, and this takes out a lot of the human error factor and makes for tight fitting parts.
Compared to Nork's that are made by cavemen with a dremel :)
 
alpining said:
The Ruger has been available for about five minutes, not sure what we can tell about long term durability from that. Just sayin.

All things being equal (which they are not in this case), would you prefer a cast or a forged frame?

Regardless, in terms of metallurgy, I'd be more concerned about small parts being MIM rather than milled.
Click to expand...

I don't know what to make of the MIM process. It sounds like a carefully controlled and fairly high tech process. I'm just not sure if the process is as good as it sounds and if the parts can be make hard enough to take a lifetime or wear.
 
Thanks Hitzy for the link, I have read all the hysteria about MIM parts and was a bit concerned but I have never had to take my SAM apart to see what is in there.
From reading that it seems that toughness and hardness are not a problem with MIM.
 
Hitzy said:
A read on mim parts http://rabbit.30de.com/resources/faq/faq-mim/
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Good read, that's what I understood previously. It's unfortunate that they do not include any specific numbers for relative failure rates. I wonder why.

From the document:

"MIM and PM parts if designed and processed properly are as good as the other process for most small part applications"


Notice the "if" and "most" in there. Nobody ever makes a part MIM because they think it's going to be better. They do so because it will be cheaper to produce, and hopefully, "good enough".

All things being equal, I am going to choose milled over MIMed every time.
 
alpining said:
The Ruger has been available for about five minutes, not sure what we can tell about long term durability from that. Just sayin.

All things being equal (which they are not in this case), would you prefer a cast or a forged frame?

Regardless, in terms of metallurgy, I'd be more concerned about small parts being MIM rather than milled.
Click to expand...

alpining said:
Good read, that's what I understood previously. It's unfortunate that they do not include any specific numbers for relative failure rates. I wonder why.

From the document:

"MIM and PM parts if designed and processed properly are as good as the other process for most small part applications"


Notice the "if" and "most" in there. Nobody ever makes a part MIM because they think it's going to be better. They do so because it will be cheaper to produce, and hopefully, "good enough".

All things being equal, I am going to choose milled over MIMed every time.
Click to expand...

The choice when talking 1911's comes down to whether you are willing to spend $3000 on one that has no mim parts.....even then there is no guarantee its gonna work. There was a thread on here last week about a night hawk custom that would not fire a mag without jamming.
Norks not included in this due to shoddy Chinese qc :)
 
Hitzy said:
The choice when talking 1911's comes down to whether you are willing to spend $3000 on one that has no mim parts.....even then there is no guarantee its gonna work. There was a thread on here last week about a night hawk custom that would not fire a mag without jamming.
Norks not included in this due to shoddy Chinese qc :)
Click to expand...

Amen. Loving my rattly 100% function Norinco and its loose tolerances! The only reason I'd go SAM would be to have a beater 1911 that I could take to the states.
 
I have Norks. One is an original from 2000. Fit and finish were....less than spectacular. Internals were rough milled and the finish outside would be mil grade at best. Wears thin and down to metal really easy. It rattles when shook. BUT, it has never failed, never jammed and is reasonably accurate. Believe it or not, it would keep pace with a friends Gold Cup, but his was easier to shoot because of the trigger. I put adjustable sights on it, and it is soon to be turned into a 45 Super and refinished.

2 years ago I ordered a Nork 2 Tone Sport model to modify. All I can say is "WOW". Internal finish is still look rough but outside....again, wow! Good blue, and the chrome is nice. No external machine marks. For $350, it is incredible. And the trigger is by far better than a stock Colt! 4 lbs, and breaks crisp! I heard someone describe once " breaks not like a glass rod but a carrot". that fits here. Crisp, light, very little take up and not much over-travel. 3 inch capable gun at 25 yards accuracy wise with cheap ammo. Other than switching out the extended slide stop(my hands are too big and kept pushing down and preventing slide lock) it will REMAIN stock. Good trigger, reliable, and reasonable accuracy. I'm not messing with it!

The SAM's look nice, but they strike me as a better pistol for the occasional shooter that wants to guaranty fit and finish. Long term....I don't know. My first Nork has 10 000 rounds through it and still going!

Looked at the Sams, Para GI, Ruger and Remington as I want a stainless piece next.
Para's have PLASTIC! Apparently cross bred with a Glock. Mainspring housing and trigger are both plastic.
Ruger felt sloppy for a pistol in that price range.
A SAM commander in stainless is in my future when they are back in stock and my gun fund is rebuilt. It will be set up, trigger done, reliability verified and shot occasionally. The Norks will continue to be the range whores.
Just ordered the Remy. Incredible feeling fit and finish.

Best of luck, but remember. Whatever you choose is right, because it won't be your last!

And for what it is worth, watch where you buy. I live in Northern Ontario and it is a rare treat to get to Epps. Wes is great to deal with, but most(not all) of the others are....interesting. I have spent a lot of money there. Was there earlier last week. I asked to see the Para and Remy, and it was a BOTHER. Guy looked like he just wanted me to leave....and I was ready to spend! I was going to order the Remy in stainless, BUT he put me off so bad I didn't want to buy it there. I went and walked around thinking maybe it was just him and figured I would try again. Went back down to the gun room and asked another guy for a cpl of mags. He actually sighed as he got up and was visibly put off I had asked him! I am a polite individual, asked him nicely and this was the response. They didn't know when they would get some in, but I could order one and they would call when it came in, no ETA.
I bough my supplies that I cannot get locally(about $300 worth), and left.
This is the 3rd time I have had this experience there. I run a retail store and I would cringe if my guys did this.

P&D had a very nice young lady named Jodie, who was warm and friendly on the phone. She said she would look into getting a Remington Stainless. She called me back with a price and ETA, and followed up when I submitted my purchase request. My cash went to Alberta. Saved 8% tax to boot, and dealt with someone that sounded glad I called. I feel any down the road issues will be looked after.

Best,
cheapsk80
 
I know what you mean about Epps. It's hit and miss as to whether you will get a sullen or enthusiastic sales person. I think it's because they see so many customers in one average day (on busy days you take a number now) that they just get worn down. Not an excuse by any means. As for the 1911s...they have the best prices I have seen anywhere and I don't know why someone would buy a used one on the EE when the new ones are $340 (or less) there.
 
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