note in 20mm explosive projectile

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bearhunter

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Recently, there was a post about a note from a WWII slave laborer, that was inserted into the empty explosive compartment of a 20 mm Coastal defense gun, manned by the Germans. Supposedly this and several other inert projectiles were found on one of the Lancaster bombers used in the DAMBUSTER RAID.

The Surgeon that just gave me a Cortisone shot to the knee, has a print hanging in his office of the Lancaster his father was the tail gunner on. He is still alive. The print depicts the plane as it was flying a few hundred feet off the ground to evade detection as it headed home after the attack. The plane was flown by Ken Brown, who from what I can recall, flew the plain his father was on.

The print also depicts the two 20mm crews firing on the plane.

The tail gunner, now in his mid eighties, related a story to his son that is very similar to the depiction on the print. The Lancaster in the print has the special swing out mounts that were fixed to the Dam Buster planes. He mentioned that the gunners on the ground hit them several times but nothing exploded, they were sitting ducks for an alert crew at such close range. He also mentioned the explosive experts on the base going through the plane to clear it of unexploded ordinance.

He just marked it down to the fuses in the projectiles maybe having an altitude type fuse that didn't get high enough or far enough to get set in flight.

Personally, I don't think the 20mm projectiles of WWII had such sophisticated fuses. I know they did on the 88mm AAA but not on the smaller stuff. I was always under they impression that they worked on impact fuses that would explode when they hit something but because of their velocity, would penetrate enough before exploding.

Anyway, the good doctor has asked me to look up this article so that he could show it to his father and if it sounds familiar to him, add it to the bottom of the print.

I've done a search but I'm just not computer savvy enough to dig it out.
 
having just spent some time researching 20mm fuses, early war ones were pretty sophisticated, having a spin activated safety, and time delayed impact fuses, plus time or altitude fuses. they also would be subject to lots of malfunction, especially being built by slave labour.
 
Thanks for that Scott. Good to know.

Many moons ago, Golden State Arms brought in a bunch of 20 mm Solothurn semi auto only guns. These were set up in such a manner that they were shootable from a tripod/bipod/mounted on a vehicle and fed from 10 round mags, mounted on the side of the gun. They also had a very tough and clear telescopic sight mounted on the side of the receiver as well.

All of the ammo that came with the guns and offered for sale, were solid armor piercing projectiles.

Incredibly powerful weapons, built in Swiss factories for Switzerland and Germany. Maybe others as well. These guns were finished in a commercial rather than a military manner. Incredibly tight tolerances that worked at minus 50C, covered in dirt or at 40C in the shade. Absolutely reliable. At 1000 meters, it would put a projectile right through a 1 inch thick AR grade steel plate and it would do it accurately.

It would make a Sherman crew get pretty excited when one of these opened up on them from a flank position or from behind. Good thing for the allies that these guns were in relatively short supply in the field.

To give another example of the penetrating qualities of the 20mm projectile. At 500 meters it would easily shoot through 2 meters of packed earth. Incredible.

I have no experience with the explosive packed projectiles, so I appreciate your input.
 
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Juster said:
20mm Flak batteries (at Emmerich) claimed at least one Lancaster, so some of the ammo seemed to work.
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly. It seems this particular Lancaster was the lucky one that had been issued tampered with ammo.

Supposedly this is a well documented occurrence. I would just like to get the confirmation for the old tail gunner.
 
This is all I could dig up.

The story I read here was similar but was about a Lancaster


This is the only official version I could find and it is a US story.




http://forum.armyairforces.com/B17F-...96-m47137.aspx

Here is the story:

Elmer Bendiner was a navigator in a B-17 during WW II. He tells this story of a World War II bombing run over Kassel , Germany and the unexpected result of a direct hit on their fuel tanks:

"Our B-17, the 'Tondelayo', was barraged by flak from Nazi anti-aircraft guns. That was not unusual, but on this particular occasion our gas tanks were hit. Later, as I reflected on the miracle of a 20 millimeter shell piercing the fuel tank without touching off an explosion, our pilot, Bohn Fawkes, told me it was not quite that simple."

"On the morning following the raid, Bohn had gone down to ask our crew chief for that shell as a souvenir of unbelievable luck. The crew chief told Bohn that not just one shell but 11 had been found in the gas tanks! Eleven unexploded shells where only one was sufficient to blast us out of the sky. It was as if the sea had been parted for us. Even after 35 years, so awesome an event leaves me shaken, especially after I heard the rest of the story from Bohn."

"He was told that the shells had been sent to the armorers to be defused. The armorers told him that Intelligence had picked them up. They could not say why at the time, but Bohn eventually sought out the answer."

"Apparently, when the armorers opened each of those shells, they found there was no explosive charge. They were as clean as a whistle and just as harmless. Empty? Not all of them! One contained a carefully rolled piece of paper. On it was a scrawl in Czech. The Intelligence people scoured our base for a man who could read Czech. Eventually they found someone to decipher the note. It read: 'This is all we can do for you now.' "

Using a conquered people ( the Czechs ) as slave laborers was not such a good idea.
 
bearhunter said:
Personally, I don't think the 20mm projectiles of WWII had such sophisticated fuses. I know they did on the 88mm AAA but not on the smaller stuff. I was always under they impression that they worked on impact fuses that would explode when they hit something but because of their velocity, would penetrate enough before exploding.
Click to expand...

2cm/65 (20x138B) ammo for the Flak 30, 38 et al was often fuzed, especially anything with a tracer.
 
Great story! I'm going to Prague this summer and intend to visit the very spot where Reinhard Heydrich was killed by the Czech resistance.

bearhunter said:
This is all I could dig up.

The story I read here was similar but was about a Lancaster


This is the only official version I could find and it is a US story.




http://forum.armyairforces.com/B17F-...96-m47137.aspx

Here is the story:

Elmer Bendiner was a navigator in a B-17 during WW II. He tells this story of a World War II bombing run over Kassel , Germany and the unexpected result of a direct hit on their fuel tanks:

"Our B-17, the 'Tondelayo', was barraged by flak from Nazi anti-aircraft guns. That was not unusual, but on this particular occasion our gas tanks were hit. Later, as I reflected on the miracle of a 20 millimeter shell piercing the fuel tank without touching off an explosion, our pilot, Bohn Fawkes, told me it was not quite that simple."

"On the morning following the raid, Bohn had gone down to ask our crew chief for that shell as a souvenir of unbelievable luck. The crew chief told Bohn that not just one shell but 11 had been found in the gas tanks! Eleven unexploded shells where only one was sufficient to blast us out of the sky. It was as if the sea had been parted for us. Even after 35 years, so awesome an event leaves me shaken, especially after I heard the rest of the story from Bohn."

"He was told that the shells had been sent to the armorers to be defused. The armorers told him that Intelligence had picked them up. They could not say why at the time, but Bohn eventually sought out the answer."

"Apparently, when the armorers opened each of those shells, they found there was no explosive charge. They were as clean as a whistle and just as harmless. Empty? Not all of them! One contained a carefully rolled piece of paper. On it was a scrawl in Czech. The Intelligence people scoured our base for a man who could read Czech. Eventually they found someone to decipher the note. It read: 'This is all we can do for you now.' "

Using a conquered people ( the Czechs ) as slave laborers was not such a good idea.
Click to expand...
 
Pretty well all German 20mm ammunition whether Oerlikon FF, MG151/20, Flak 30/38 had either a nose or base fuze. The exceptions were some of the AP and API projectiles.

The fuzes were quite sophisticated with bore safety built in and in some cases a self destruct facility.

Attached are examples of a nose and a base fuze.

Regards
TonyE



 
From google:

It is near to the Na Bulovce hospital in Libeň on the corner of V Holešovičkách street and what is now Kubišova street (Kubiš was one of the assassins) - another street in the vicinity is called Gabčíkova in honour of one of the other assassins. I imagine it looks very different nowadays.

What you should see instead is the Orthodox church on Resslova near Karlovo náměsti where they were holed up in the crypt afterwards - you can see where the Germans attempted to shoot their way in and it is very moving.

CyrilMethodious.JPG


I understand that the actual place is actually quite different now than it was in 1942. Quite a busy spot with a fairly ignored memorial. But I would like to say I've stood on this ground as it is personally important. Seeing as Heydrich was the chief architect of the final solution. An evil we all need to remain vigilant against for all time.
 
TonyE said:
Pretty well all German 20mm ammunition whether Oerlikon FF, MG151/20, Flak 30/38 had either a nose or base fuze. The exceptions were some of the AP and API projectiles.

The fuzes were quite sophisticated with bore safety built in and in some cases a self destruct facility.

Attached are examples of a nose and a base fuze.

Regards
TonyE



Click to expand...

This is useful info. I've got a couple of 20mm cases and projectiles from a Fw190 strafer that my uncle saw shot down in Normandy. He shipped these home as souvenirs sans propellant. I'll have to dig out the projectiles and take another look at them.
 
I don't know of altitude (barometric pressure related) activated fuzes being used.

Most common types of air burst fuzes are time elapsed from firing actuated (Mechanical Time) or set to operate when at a predetermined distance from the target by use of radar and doppler effect (Proximity Fuzed). Nowadays (and I assume back then) they also functioned upon contact with an object.

Regardless, a lucky aircrew. Bomber Command took some terrible losses.
 
IIRC, the Finnish Lahti l/39 antitank rifle, the Swiss Solthurn S-1000 atr, and the German Flak 38 antiaircraft cannon all used the same 20x138B round.
 
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